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lainchan archive - /civ/ - 1690



File: 1471745231438.png (44.1 KB, 300x260, credt.jpg)

No.1690

http://thelongandshort.org/society/war-on-cash

Are you ready for 100% of your purchases to be processed by Visa™? Get excited about collecting points for a revolving series of products that is updated everyday on the Visa™ app. Want to send money to a friend? Venmo™ by Paypal™ can do that instantly and easily. Just remember to provide a detailed explanation for the payment to avoid locking your account and triggering a investigation by Paypal™.

>So, let's prepare for the War on Cash. Remember, this is not about romanticising the £10 notes with the Queen on them. This is about maintaining alternatives to the stifling hygiene of the digital panopticon being constructed to serve the needs of profit-maximising, cost-minimising, customer-monitoring, control-seeking, behaviour-predicting commercial bureaucrats.

  No.1691

If you want your anonymity you use cryptocurrencies.
Often even if somewhere doesn't directly accept them you can go through a third party to buy something like a gift card, which is effectively the same thing.

  No.1697

>>1691
If things go fully digital buying bitcoin will likely get more difficult. Right now nearly all of the quick movement payment systems (paypal, venmo) outright ban buying bitcoins, and the ones that don't are very risky to use as they can be reversed while bitcoin transactions can not.
How will we handle buying and selling cryptocurrencies when every method of payment is directly controlled by the banks (and thus reversible)?

  No.1699

Oh no!! Visa is gonna know that I'm buying weird sex toys and food at Hardees!!

  No.1700

>>1690
>Just remember to provide a detailed explanation for the payment to avoid locking your account and triggering a investigation by Paypal™.

this is so true.

>>1691
But Bitcoins aren't Anonymous?

  No.1702

>>1700
You can anon your buttcoin if you use a reputable laundry service. You'll lose a percentage though.

  No.1706

I occasionally hear people speculating about the harm of "cashless societies", but frankly they only ever seem to be reacting to utopic science fiction. I've not actually ever encountered anyone actually pushing a cashless society (Visa and friends excepted), and where I am (Australia) any business that won't take cash would be seen as exceptionally strange. Sure, paying with cards is far more common, but with a single exceptions (Buses, who have the world's best excuse) I can't remember the last time someone declined accepting cash from me.

Given that, I'm not entirely sure where the fear that a cashless society is around the corner comes from. It seems to be a rather old idea (at least as far as Cyberpunk things go), and yet it reality doesn't seem to have moved to meet their fears and expectations. The author of the article even points out """These prediction factories always produce the same two unprovable sentences: "In the future we will… " and "In the future we will no longer… " """, but apparently misses their own role in that.

Actually, I'd find a discussion of the idea that "a cashless society looms near" far more interesting than any blog post about the actual pros and cons of said potential future. The fear of cashless societies is here now, but the society itself isn't.

  No.1733

>>1706
I first saw the cashless society meme on right-libertarian conspiracy theory tumblrs, but I seriously doubt that's where it came from. I'm not exactly sure whose agenda it is, actually - I've looked it up and even found an Atlantic article on it: http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/04/cashless-society/477411/
but most sources on this come from right wing publications like zero hedge (heh). Is there an industrial hemp lobby?

  No.1757

>>1706
Did you read the article? The author mentions how it is being pushed and gives an example of where cash isn't accepted.
An entire area that the article doesn't touch on is apps/online services. They are increasingly trying to take over areas of our lives (transport, food delivery, shopping) and are entirely based on electronic payments (just try pay for an uber with cash).

  No.1758

>>1757
>The author mentions how it is being pushed
By credit card companies. And with fairly limited success, as far as I can tell.

>and gives an example of where cash isn't accepted.

A few rare examples isn't really all that interesting.
I've not seen any evidence of a significant trend. Heck, many places seriously prefer taking cash, because of the fees charged by card companies.

Cash has three major advantages over third-party systems: it's ubiquitous, it's cheap to handle, and using it has very low barriers to entry. Until Visa and friends address any of those but the first, I'm not going to be concerned.

>An entire area that the article doesn't touch on is apps/online services.

That's more interesting, though I would view it as more of a distinct topic; those things provide a completely different environment, rather than just a replacement payment system.

  No.1868

Another good article: http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/04/cashless-society/477411/

>The choke points are private corporations that are not only subject to government regulation on the books, but have shown a disturbing willingness to bend to extralegal requests—whether it is enforcing financial blockades against the controversial whistleblowing organization WikiLeaks or the website Backpage, which hosts classified ads by sex workers, and allegedly ads from sex traffickers as well. A little bit of pressure, and the whole financial system closes off to the government’s latest pariah.


The best part about having the digital money handled entirely by private corporations is that they don't need a legal reason to shut things down.

  No.1870

>>1690
I don't know how this is in the America's but in Europe you are obligated to accept payment in cash, if its payed in less than 50 coins.

  No.1871

>>1870
The OP article has a direct example of that not happening.

>Several months ago I stayed in an offbeat Amsterdam hotel that brewed its own beer but refused to accept cash for it. Instead, they forced me to use the Visa payment card network to get my UK bank to transfer €4 to their Dutch bank via the elaborate international correspondent banking system.

  No.1872

File: 1472851833926.png (38.49 KB, 200x118, serveimage.jpeg)

>>1706
The more control the banks have (i.e. visa type transactions only) the more our money is not ours! and what might be used today as convenience can be used tomorrow for other means... wait until visa sell your spending data to your employer or anyone else with some "authority".

You purchase anime and ky jelly... top hAx0r... the police then can scan your shit remotely - cuz they will have that power - and fuck you - or if you are squeaky clean they will at least have fun looking through all your life!

Welcome to the future - enjoy your stay!

  No.1873

>>1758
>And with fairly limited success, as far as I can tell.
Have they started lobbying the government yet?

  No.1893

>>1697
Can't you mix your coins and avoid source based tracking?

  No.1896

>>1871
Just pointing out he was wronged. It's illegal to steal, but it still happens.

  No.1949

>>1872
You can also decide that people who are enemies of the state don't get access to your economic system.

Starve dissent

  No.1950

>>1697
oh no they are banning buying bitcoin?
no mr paypal this payment was for my groceries

  No.1951

>>1690

whats your point?

money is debt so therefor values which isnt yours anyway.

there are installations all over the world
collecting all information since over 25 years.

war on cash is only the digitization of cash
which would mean the centralization of
control already in charge and of course
the ease of deployment of such control.


soooo its gonna happen anyway.
money is too expensive for money itself.
the war is already over

  No.1953

File: 1473195909348.png (374.65 KB, 57x200, 1429037405679.jpg)

>>1690
Speaking of which. I was gobsmacked on my first visit to the US - on an internal flight (think it was Delta) they only accepted card payments. As a foreigner, I felt discriminated against.

  No.1954

>>1953
I think they do this so they don't have to deal with making change for idiots. I can't speak for other places but the U.S is infested with arrogant shits who like to abuse the stewardesses on the plane. Heard of a tip guys?

This way it's just like swipe swipe fuck off.

  No.1966

>>1953
Our airlines don't do cash. Sorry nothing personnel kid.

  No.1967

>>1953
taking cash would mean they would need a cash drawer on the cart, a secure place to store it and they would need to trust the crew with it. Taking cards just requires a single handheld machine.

  No.1981

Even if cash were banned or rendered useless, people who need to do dealings in person and without digital footprint would just establish a new "currency". Anything small and with stable value would work. Think cigarettes in prison. This new barter token would be just as hard to trace as cash and even harder, if not impossible to tax.

It seems to me that in all aspects of life, the more control the state and big business exert over the general populous, the more control they lose over the fringes.

  No.2023

>>1953
>As a foreigner, I felt discriminated against.
Good, you're a guest. Don't be so entitled and be thankful you're even allowed in and able to move freely.

  No.2026

>>2023
>Good, you're a guest. Don't be so entitled and be thankful you're even allowed in and able to move freely.
do you also work for the TSA?

  No.2035

>>2026
>do you also work for the TSA?
>the TSA is the only agency that restricts travel
You know not every country is like the US and Europe in terms of traveling, right?

  No.2038

>>2035
why, yes. why do you say that?

  No.2041

>>2035
Truly curious as to what you are referring to here. I know in some countries, you can't easily travel internally without notifying the authorities.

I for one prefer the in flight purchase by credit card system. People were annoying with the change.

  No.2042

>>1690
With all the obvious cons, like being associated to the places where you buy, and having your location disclosed when you buy at a physical location, credit cards still have many benefits.

I'd gladly use paper money only, but where I live that means I either have to be drawing it daily in low quantities or walk around with a large quantity of it and risk being robbed and losing it all. Credit cards can be more convenient and safe in these conditions.

  No.2044

>>2042
Criminals can still take your money even with a credit/debit card.
http://krebsonsecurity.com/2016/09/flash-hijacks-add-new-twist-to-muggings/
I would assume your bank will refund it eventually though.

  No.2413

Are there any widespread tracking of cash transactions? It would be trivial to scan serial numbers at PoS, though I don't think it's happening. If there was a real need to trace cash it could be done fairly easily.

  No.2495

>Apple is going to make cash a thing of the past, or at least that's what CEO Tim Cook says.
>Cook, speaking with a small group of reporters after Thursday's MacBook event, said the uptake for the company's mobile payments service Apple Pay has been dramatic.
>"We're going to kill cash," he said. "Nobody likes to carry around cash."

Anyone else excited to have all of your purchases controlled by largest corporation in the world?

https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-pay-tim-cook-mobile-payments/

  No.2497

>>2495
Cook is vehemently privacy.

Apple alt-coin when?

  No.2514

>>2042
I kinda understand your point, but isn't a little bit of inconvenience worth your freedom?

I mean, most people do choose convenience over anyting else but you've got to realize that this is not a good thing.

  No.2516

>>2042
>losing it all
you'd withdraw your entire savings account and walk around with it?

  No.2519

It's more centralization, more dependence on the banking and finance sector, more tail risk. There has to be a point where centralization becomes more risky than what it is worth and a drag to the whole system, arguably we are already there with the big banks and other too big to fail financial institutions.

  No.2533

>>1697
One of the cool things about bitcoin is you can directly convert any money into it through your electric bill. You buy a GPU farm and wait.