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lainchan archive - /civ/ - 1723



File: 1471925083154.png (34.6 KB, 275x300, queen.jpg)

No.1723

Obviously it has been decriminalized in certain cases, but in my opinion legalizing sex work is good for women, good for business, good for government, and promotes an honest open market which is good for our souls.

What is holding back the Western world from dropping it's draconian moral hangouts in favor of an outlook on sex work which seems to be pro-consumer and pro-woman?

What is holding back decriminalization?

The one true queen's pic is totally unrelated.

  No.1732

You didn't state any reasons why "The West" ought to legalize prostitution, just some vague ones about why you liked it. I'd ask you to elaborate, but I think I know what you'll say and I'm already bored by it.

  No.1740

OP, I think it's better to push sex toys as opposed to prostitution.

>Gives people a decent outlet for their sexual needs

>Safer for everyone involved, no crazy people killing hookers, STDs being spread, or cheap fuckers getting attacked by pimps for not paying
>Prostitution only employs the prostitue but if you open up sex toy factories you can employee way more people from the entry level customer support to the people who make the sex toys to the managers and marketing teams.

  No.1742

A question to the left-leaning who oppose prostitution: how is the commodification of sex any different from the commodification of labor (beyond the squick factor)? Either way has you turning your body into a tool of production to satisfy the needs of the one paying you, I don't see anything essential there.

  No.1743

>>1742
Personally I'm against the commodity form itself, and yes, wage labour is not that different from prostitution.

  No.1744

File: 1471987914102.png (82.73 KB, 200x174, confused cartoon1.png)

>>1723
Do you want to be a slut OP?

  No.1748

>>1723
I'm OK with it. People say it's exploitative, but all labor is exploitative. As long as the conditions are good and they can choose to stop, nothing basic income or socialism can't fix.

Big problem is STDs. Might need to advance medical technology before we do it.

  No.1750

>>1740
>Gives people a decent outlet for their sexual needs
Not as well as a person could.
>Safer for everyone involved, no crazy people killing hookers, STDs being spread, or cheap fuckers getting attacked by pimps for not paying
Solved problem with PREP. Anything else you likely already have. I'm not kidding.
>Prostitution only employs the prostitue but if you open up sex toy factories you can employee way more people from the entry level customer support to the people who make the sex toys to the managers and marketing teams.
And what's wrong with a sole proprietor? That sounds like an enterprising businesswoman to me.
>>1748
I don't see an STD problem that isn't already solved. Most people already have most of the "skin" diseases.

  No.1752

>>1750
>Not as well as a person could
LOL!! What if you pay some good money for some whore and she just lays there like a fish? At least the toy is just there and it's up to you to make yourself feel good.

But there is nothing wrong with a sole proprietor.

I just fucking love sex toys.

  No.1754

>>1752
>I just fucking love sex toys

Fair enough.

  No.1763

>>1744
i don't know about OP but i wanna be a slut :3

  No.1764

>>1763
Let's all be the biggest sluts possible!!

>>1754
I just wish there were more male toys made out of silicone....

  No.1785

>What is holding back the Western world from dropping it's draconian moral hangouts in favor of an outlook on sex work which seems to be pro-consumer and pro-woman?

have you been first-hand to any places where prostitution was prevalent? they're almost always shite holes. in my experience, the legality of it isn't even really the issue, just how prevalent it is.

  No.1788

>>1785
This. The problem imo comes from from a economical stand point rather what most videos and opinions in most videos and talks I have seen on the subject. Prostitution has always been in the government's eyes as it's a easy source of tax revenue. But the problem lies with (at least in the states.) with people who don't want to share there profits with uncle sam.

  No.1795

>>1785
This is somewhat of a post hoc ergo propter hoc.
Prostitution is a result of economic despair for the vast majority of workers. So it makes sense that places with high-prostitution are shitholes. Not because of prostitution (though id argue that illegalised prostitution promotes shady business) but the other way around. The prostitution is in the first place caused by poor economic conditions.

  No.1799

>>1795
But are they really shit holes?
Legalized prostitution:
-Nevada: aint half bad minus the radiation and sand.
-Amsterdam: Weed, old architecture, nice people. What's not to love?
-Switzerland: Come on Switzreich is an awesome place to hang out. It's beautiful, the standard of living is great, the country is relatively wealthy.
-Germany: Seriously this place is awesome. I would have difficulty calling anywhere in germany a "shithole"
-Austria: same.

I wont sugar coat the fact that in many places prostitutes are mostly immigrants, and that on the whole they are not enjoying a high standard of living.

I would argue two things about that:
1) As prostitution is appealing to desperate folks it will always be the case that people turn to it in that case, and the majority of prostitutes will be on the disadvantaged side.
2) However, I see this evening out in a world where many countries have legalized prostitution and there is less incentive to roam about to the centers with looser laws. In a world where prostitution is a more normal thing, there will be a demand for middle class prostitutes as people ultimately will want to screw people from their own bracket.
3) Perhaps it is likely "high end" and "midtier" prostitutes are easy to under represent.

As sex work becomes a normal thing the way that "surgery" became a normal thing I think we will seen conditions in even the most low rent establishments improve toward a respectable norm.

  No.1837

>>1799
you make a respectable case, but i don't see how you can compare surgery to prostitution. where is the similarity?

  No.1842

I'd welcome it as it'd very much decrease criminality and improve the standards for literal sluts and hopefully push them a bit to the more regular way of life a bit

  No.1843

>>1785
I think they were already shit holes, and decriminalization was conceived as a step in a better direction. How well it works, I don't know. But all of the "problems" associated with legal prostitution already exist where it's illegal. Treating it as a criminal matter instead of a public health one doesn't seem to stop anything.

>>1743
So collective the brothels and strip clubs d:

  No.1846

>>1842
>it'd very much decrease criminality
on paper, yes

>hopefully push them a bit to the more regular way of life a bit

how would it do that?

  No.1847

>>1742
Why would left leaning be against prostitution, in itself. It's only when the prostitute is being exploited as a person/worker, that the "left" would be against it. I don't think there will be a problem with the "happy hookers"

  No.1848

>>1846
Whether you agree with this or not is one thing but these are the basic cornerstones of the argument, which seem to have gone right past you. Decriminalizing it takes it out of the hands of gangs and pimps and into the hands of legitimate agencies or independent workers. Taking income away from organized crime is a positive thing.

It steers workers towards normal lives because the stigma isn't there anymore and it's easier to access outreach programs when you aren't afraid of the police arresting you.

  No.1850

>>1848
>which seem to have gone right past you.
it did not.

>Decriminalizing it takes it out of the hands of gangs and pimps

no, they would still be active in spite of legalization. would decriminalizing, say, cannabis mean that gangs will suddenly stop distributing it?

>into the hands of independent workers

women can choose to be prostitutes on their own already.

>the stigma isn't there anymore

>easier to access outreach programs
outreach programs? obviously there would still be stigma attached if there would be outreach programs available, because it would be seen as a problem.

  No.1851

>>1850
>would decriminalizing, say, cannabis mean that gangs will suddenly stop distributing it?

depends what we mean by decriminalization. For example prostitution was decriminalized in Canada, but being a john was still illegal. It cut down on prison crowding and let women call the police on dangerous johns and pimps

I have a feeling you mean taxed and sellable legally sorta decriminalization where user and substance is decriminalized and sold. most likey most gangs dont distribute cigarettes, aspirin, vodka, gin, beer, etc.

  No.1852

>>1850
> would decriminalizing, say, cannabis mean that gangs will suddenly stop distributing it?
If people can get it from a legal vendor it would seriously undercut the gangs. There is still bootlegging of liquor but it is a tiny fraction of the alcohol trade.

> women can choose to be prostitutes on their own already.

Except that pimps are territorial and violent. I don't think you know how this industry works at all.

>>1851
>most likey most gangs dont distribute cigarettes, aspirin, vodka, gin, beer, etc.
akshully... in Canada bootlegged cigarettes are a large industry for but I blame that on the heavy taxes on the mainstream merchandise.

  No.1853

>>1852
>women can choose to be prostitutes on their own already.
yeah, i know pimps can be abusive and all, but what i meant was that many women can and do self employ into the sex business. legalizing it would not "put it in womens' hands" so to speak, because it kinda already is.

>I blame that on the heavy taxes on the mainstream merchandise.

you'd better believe that that would also happen for sex workers, because the government will always look to tax to the max on any profitable sector. look at what happened to cigarettes. and when that happens, sex workers will eventually look for ways to start doing under the radar it without Uncle Sam's permission. things don't get better.

  No.1854

File: 1472711874877.png (13.46 KB, 200x126, royallycurved.jpg)

>>1837

Surgery was once considered to be the realm of charlatans and fraudsters. Before the germ age, surgery was a last resort undertaken by the desperate. In fact until relatively recently (late 1800s) surgeons were not considered to be Doctors at all, and were called "barber surgeons" i.e they pulled teath and cut hair as well as surgery.

It was not until the germ age of medicine allowed surgery to be practiced and studied safely did Surgeons become respected, and considered doctors.

The original version of the hippocratic oath actually admonishes doctors who wish to practice surgery.

A critical turning point occurred during the reign of Louis IV, when Louis came down an Anal fistula (an abcess burrowed it's way from his anus out a secondary hole in his body.)

A barber surgeon was hired who practiced for 6 months on hundreds of peasants, learning how to repair the fistula. Eventually he saved the kings life, and his picture hangs in the halls of French medicine.
http://www.bilan.ch/garry-littman/english-room/royal-fistula-changed-face-surgery

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles-Fran%C3%A7ois_F%C3%A9lix

The point is that what was once considered to be a profession mired in filth became a well respected one over time. Prostitution can grow in the same way. Especially after the invention of PreP

Oh I also included a picture of the device the crazy butt surgeon guy invented. I thought you all would enjoy that. Modern French surgery was pioneered by Royal butt surgery. That's your zen for the day.

  No.1859

No one seems to be able to provide a reasonable argument for keeping it illegal. It all originates from religious moralism ultimately whether anyone admits it or not. Even many "feminists" seem to support decriminalization. Rather than demand proof that it should be legalized or decriminalized, the burden of proof ought to be on those who think it should be a crime in the first place. This is a cyberpunk forum after all.

Whatever public health problems it presents, those exist already without it being regulated.

  No.1860

>>1854
>Queen Isabel I of Spain who also confessed to having only two baths; on the day of her birth and the day of her marriage.

I'm sickened yet turned on.

  No.1861

>>1859
>No one seems to be able to provide a reasonable argument for keeping it illegal.

The only point i've read from the other side that might be true is that it could increase human trafficking. I wasn't aware before looking it up but most "modern slaves" aren't sex slaves- most of the trafficked people in the US are actually tricked into debt and have to "pay it off" by working in restaurants usually.

So that's something to consider, I mean I don't think human trafficking sometimes happening is a good reason to keep it illegal, same way as drunk drivers sometimes killing people shouldn't make alcohol illegal.

  No.1862

>>1750
>>1854
Your lack of knowledge of the dangers of PrEP scares me. I hear this a lot in the gay community. PrEP is not a perfect shield. There are already strains completely resistant to it. [https://www.poz.com/article/prep-fails-gay-man-adhering-daily-truvada-contracts-drugresistant-hiv]

Beyond that, it's not a silver bullet. It should be used in conjunction with condoms at the very least.

Further, the use of PrEP in those in a certain window has created low-transmission but PrEP resistant strains.

PrEP Causes side effects in a non-trivial percentage of patients. PrEP costs $1,000+ a month. It's meant to be prescribed for 90 days at a time AT MOST and to be used with frequent HIV testing as well as preventative counseling for those at high risk.

Please read the following article for your own safety: https://www.poz.com/basics/hiv-basics/pep-prep

>>1750
You sir are absolutely wrong when you say "anything else you likely already have." This is probably the most dangerous hand wave I've heard in awhile. You do know there are various strains of any STI, right? It's not pokemon, your goal isn't to catch them all.

  No.1863

>>1862
Just going to add that I'm not taking a side on the prostitution issue, just providing more information about HIV prevention. Don't think it's a joke, this shit isn't tame just because we have retrovirals. Stay safe lainons.

  No.1877

>>1854
so your reasoning is that:
>surgery was once misunderstood and taboo
>now it is not
therefore, since prostitution is also "misunderstood" and taboo, it will benefit society much like surgery if it is legalized.

you're comparing apples to oranges. sex and medical care are not the same things. you could just as well compare prostitution to the history of the printing press for that matter, or the history of the atomic bomb.

  No.1878

>>1859
>the burden of proof ought to be on those who think it should be a crime in the first place.
well, technically it is a crime in many places. you wouldn't march into Japan and demand that people provide a burden of proof justifying their ban of Vicks inhalers, would you? the burden of proof would lie on YOU to convince them to change that law, not the other way around.

  No.1897

>>1723
It's been a long time since horny manchildren ruled the country and the west has only recently been infested with nihilistic juice, so to legalize it they have to take some time to destroy society first. Expect to see it legalized in under 15 years.

  No.1909

File: 1473003328922.png (126.94 KB, 200x109, woody_allen_sleeper.jpg)

>tfw you will never own an organsmatron

  No.2171

How the hell is prostitution good for women?

  No.2172

Who the fuck cares how women (and men) decide to make money as long as they aren't truly hurting anyone else? I see prostitution like I see furry orgies: Something I wouldn't want to be a part of, but something not worth regulating as long as it's not done on the streets with everyone being able to see it.

What we need is a compromise. Make prostitution legal with a set of standards that ensure that people don't (non literally) get fucked out of this. Sure, there will never be a perfect system, but it would definitely be better than the non legal prositution that is already happening and always will keep happening as long as people want to have sex and dont have immediate access to it.

  No.2177

>>2172
correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't prostitution initially made illegal in the US by femisinsts?

  No.2178

File: 1475563326437.png (110.73 KB, 200x150, 1418271724996.jpg)

>>1723

Well it's legal in all first world countries in the Western world. It's just the theocracies that are behind.

  No.2191

Prostituation being illegal hurts sex workers in that the industry can't be regulated when it's illegal, basically. Legalizing it would be better in every possible way tbh.

  No.2198

>>1878
I guess Vicks was legal once and then became illegal - and probably had some reason... (somewhere) for banning.

It was not like the world banned vicks in the roman times and now most country repealed the law and allow Vicks to be leagal?

  No.2202

File: 1476133581845.png (854.34 KB, 175x200, ().jpeg)

>>2177

Replace "feminists" with "authoritarians" and you have your answer.

  No.2206

>>2202
They're the same thing.

  No.2208

File: 1476158348690.png (172.7 KB, 160x200, fuwafuwa.jpg)

>>2206

Not all authoritarians are feminists, not all feminists are authoritarians.

  No.2210

>>2206
Do you actually believe this? If so...

  No.2212

It worked out for us here in NZ

  No.2217

>>1878
This makes no sense whatsoever.

>>1861
Human trafficking is already a problem with prostitution being illegal though. Keeping it illegal just keeps workers in the hands of pimps and gangsters.

  No.2223

>>2217
>>1878
>This makes no sense whatsoever.

why you say that?

  No.2225

>>2223
You're talking about marching into a foreign country and challenging their laws for no apparent reason. I'm saying that if something is illegal in MY OWN country, I want a damn good reason for it. Keeping something illegal just because that's the way it's always been isn't a valid reason.

  No.2226

>>2225
>if something is illegal in MY OWN country
what's the difference if it's your country, our country, or Ronald McDonald's country? if you advocate the change of a law, or the abolition of one, you should present your case for the change first before demanding that others present theirs. otherwise you'll just come off as some annoying, angry guy to anyone who doesn't already share your point of view.

  No.2250

>>2226
uh, I've done so extensively already in this thread which you didn't read, and so have other users. This may shock you but people here generally support personal liberty and freedom of choice over government regulation and prohibition. Welcome to Lainchan, enjoy your stay.

  No.2283

>>2250
>>2250
>uh, I've done so extensively already in this thread which you didn't read
actually, i've read this entire thread. why don't you try responding to the argument in my post instead of throwing a temper tantrum?

>This may shock you but people here generally support personal liberty

i happen to be one of those people.

>Welcome to Lainchan, enjoy your stay.

lol thanks