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lainchan archive - /civ/ - 2192



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No.2192

what are your thoughts on the concept of appropriation?

i feel like the popular sentiment online is to mock it/not take it seriously because of sjws and the likes making ridiculous claims, but i was thinking about how much i used to like certain things like pepe, but once tubmlr and twitter and twitch got in on them i started to hate it/feel like the people who adopted it ruined it.
it seems hypocritical of me to feel like people from other sites "appropriated" a meme from another source, yet still feel like people who get upset when white people wear a headdress or whatever are ridiculous

  No.2193

outgroups coopting your favorite internet meme isn't quite what cultural appropriation is.
cultural appropriation usually involves taking/stealing as well as mocking the original users, e.g. idiot stoners wearing dreads when black people can't wear them at their job

  No.2194

>>2192
>concept of appropriation
Is that what they call weeaboos doing the shit they do desu?

  No.2195

I can understand what it's getting at, but there's so little room for a rigid definition that I can't really abide by it. Like I'm fine with people wearing sombreros or kimonos since it's harmless cultural exchange, but when the original cultures are being exploited or mocked it's crossing the line. If a museum is paying poor Native Americans a few dollars to get artifacts they'll keep profiting off of, most people would say this is exploitation. But what if it's $250? Native Americans are by far the poorest demographic in the U.S., and many of them can't reject something like this. The museum means no harm, but it ends up looking like a predator by nature.

That's why I have no clue. It deals in a lot of abstract boundaries, power dynamics, capitalism, and a mess of other things. I've never seen an honest attempt to codify it into something practical, but if that does happen I'll be interested.

  No.2200

>>2192
One can't own ideas, but one can be credited for them.

This is a game I don't think people should be playing, because European society has invented computing, modern medicine, modern agriculture, and many other important advancements that are used by and benefiting people worldwide.

So, I don't care if someone's offended by my eating a food, wearing something, or mocking something from their culture. If they don't want to use absolutely anything from a culture that isn't their own, which throws out everything from Western Arabic numerals to most food grown on Earth, then I'd take their complaints with a bit more weight, but it would still be a petty complaint to begin with.

  No.2218

>>2197
>Exactly the same cancer
Not really, since one is backed up by oppressive laws and the other is only backed up by people telling you it's "not nice".

  No.2263

To me, the point to get upset is when things seep backwards, which is valid for both the real world and the Wired. The original source of a culture point is going to stay relatively pure and true to the original idea. It's going to spread regardless of what people try to do to stop the spread. As it spreads, the other cultures it touches interact with each other and produce new things, which is all great and cool and beautiful etc. But when the original source of it all gets touched by this, that's when it crosses the line into "too much".

Imagine a river flowing along its merry way. As it passes different locations, each place uses the river for a slightly different purpose, and the river cuts into the land in a slightly different way. Now imagine at the end of the river is a factory that ejects toxic waste into the final portion of the river. As long as the factory workers and the people nearby are okay with it, that's great and dandy. But when there's a strong earthquake and the river begins to flow backwards...now there's a problem.

  No.2264

Look at it this way. Nerds get so anal-pained when nerd things become mainstream, or when they think girls are only pretending to like video games and Star Wars. Imagine it was something slightly more meaningful than comic books and video games, and a whole group of people were flaunting it and putting it on t-shirts without knowing anything about it. Not saying I actually care by the way, just that this is the reason people get upset.

>>2194
Actually yeah, some Japanese are either deeply offended by weeabooism or at least think it's worth mocking. For an example of the latter, see the Planetes episode with the unemployed migrants using the 1/6 gravity on the moon to play "ninja". Hilarious episode actually.

  No.2281

>>2264
>some Japanese are either deeply offended by weeabooism
then why do they keep exporting shitty anime?

  No.2284

>>2281

Because we're stupid enough to buy into the "kawaii desu desu~" mentality. They've successfully created an export resource that is lapped up by the entirety of the world.

  No.2285

>>2284
I'll clarify, that is exported to the entirety of the world in geographical influence but not necessarily influencing every, or even a majority, in said countries.

  No.2291

The concept of cultural appropriation=bad doesn't stand up to scrutiny. One problem comes when you start looking closely at exactly where ideas come from and just who is stealing what. Every single aspect of every single modern culture has been passed back and forth throughout the ages. Take pepe for instance. We didn't create pepe, we got it from a webcomic. Now, the guy who made the comic might have a decent argument (though not one I'd accept, fuck IP) that pepe belongs to him as an individual but it's almost comical to imagine that it would be alright to use it only if you were also a webcomic artist because it came from within your own arbitrarily defined cultural boundaries.

It's this arbitrary definition of what is within your culture as opposed to what's outside of it that causes most of the problems. If we take an example with better defined boundaries, for instance kimonos. They're a part of Japanese culture and we can easily say that they're outside of our culture but then what about if we were Japanese? Japan isn't one homogeneous culture nowhere is. At some point somebody invented the kimono and it caught on inside of their town and then spread to other towns in the local area until eventually it was universal with many changes along the way and over the years. Was each of these stages an instance of cultural appropriation? If not, why? Why do we draw the lines for appropriation around countries rather than just towns?

The concept of someone being without or within a culture is highly subjective. Culture is a writhing living mass of 6 billion people and it's only seems easy to draw these lines and make these abstractions because we're not looking too closely. In the same way an outside observer might not be able to see the fuss with internet people using the same frog pictures as other internet people, we're use the same sorts of abstractions when we say "Japanese".

This leads to a bit of a shitty situation. It caught on as a concept of a bad thing but everybody is doing it and it's really arbitrary as to where you can see it and so people being people we get the usual "I don't like them, better justify that" and the senseless ridiculous accusations but then there are always gonna be some minority who misunderstand and abuse things.

>>2193
>cultural appropriation usually involves taking/stealing as well as mocking the original users
This is a more recent development of the meaning of the term. I think it's mostly that this is the sort of definition the people who were using it had in mind and so it changed as is natural for words. In most of the academic literature surrounding this there's no clause like that on the definition but they also don't see it as a universally bad thing and are generally quite clear that they're pointing out instances that it's gone wrong rather than decrying the process altogether.

Cont.

  No.2292

>>2291
Cont.

>idiot stoners wearing dreads when black people can't wear them at their job

Past pointless dress codes I don't see the problem here. If the stoners and the bosses saying you can't wear dreads were one and the same then it would be very hypocritical but they aren't. It's not wrong for the stoners to wear dreads and while it may be wrong to control people's hair styles for work I don't see how these things are connected.

>>2263
>The original source of a culture point is going to stay relatively pure and true to the original idea
What is the original source though? Take pepe, is it the webcomic guy? But then pepe is just an instance of an anthropomorphised animal which go back to at least Egyptian times. There are no original sources and nothing is pure.

>It's going to spread regardless of what people try to do to stop the spread.

This is very true, so long as there is communication there is cultural exchange.

>But when the original source of it all gets touched by this, that's when it crosses the line into "too much".

The river will always flows both ways and one persons meat is another's poison. Sure, none of us like it when we see a bunch of shitty memes especially when they're "our" memes but then we're no better. The webcomic guy probably hates us just as much.

>>2264
>anal-pained
That's the brunt of it yeah. The fact that we considered pepe to be ours is what makes normal shitty memes feel personal but it was never really ours so the only legitimate reason to be upset is that someone is making shit memes.

>>2281
The people exporting it are probably not the same people who're deeply offended by it and may even come from different Japanese subcultures that have different outlooks on weebs.

  No.2293

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I think your takeaway here should be that you shouldn't feel so attached to your internet culture.

A chef in my city was complaining about white people making tacos as appropriation, and food is the place where complaining about appropriation makes the least sense. But its still more legitimate than appropriation as applied to memes.

  No.2306

>>2293
Is there a filter to get this effect?

  No.2310

the problem I see with cultural appropriation isn't just that it's someone from one culture -using- something from another culture, which happens all the time, it's someone from a colonizing culture -taking- something from a colonized culture, where elements of that colonized culture would ordinarily be stigmatized.

For instance, wearing dreads. A white dude can do it, and doesn't have to fear getting fired, but if a black person does it then he has to fear looking "unprofessional."

Another problem is when someone who's a part of a colonizing culture doesn't know a thing about the culture they're taking something from, for instance weeaboos and anime. It's a particular blend of disrespect and ignorance that just frustrates me, but even more annoying is when people from say /a/ start applying their own elitist standards to appreciation of the content rather than actually taking the time to learn about a work's context and circumstances.

There's also the much more material exploitation when people's artwork, usually people who are somehow marginalized gets stolen by institutions and they aren't given any credit for it. This can either be with exploitative contracts or by literally stealing it without facing legal repercussions, which happens. It becomes cultural appropriation when those people are marginalized because of their culture, or are part of a marginalized culture.

There's also the implications certain symbols have in one culture which don't necessarily exist in another that you need to watch out for, mostly because of how much of a faux pas it is.

>>2281
'they' aren't exporting shitty anime, certain studios are exporting shitty anime. Please learn what nuance is.

  No.2312

>>2310
>the problem I see with cultural appropriation isn't just that it's someone from one culture -using- something from another culture, which happens all the time, it's someone from a colonizing culture -taking- something from a colonized culture, where elements of that colonized culture would ordinarily be stigmatized.
This seems like pointless whining on the part of those annoyed.

>For instance, wearing dreads. A white dude can do it, and doesn't have to fear getting fired, but if a black person does it then he has to fear looking "unprofessional."

This is a silly example. Not only would that depend on the workplace, but there's also little reason to believe blacks invented dreadlocks. Both Greeks and Vikings had dreadlocks. It would be easy for me to complain that blacks have appropriated something from me by claiming only they should be able to wear them, but I don't because I don't care enough.

>Another problem is when someone who's a part of a colonizing culture doesn't know a thing about the culture they're taking something from, for instance weeaboos and anime. It's a particular blend of disrespect and ignorance that just frustrates me, but even more annoying is when people from say /a/ start applying their own elitist standards to appreciation of the content rather than actually taking the time to learn about a work's context and circumstances.

>There's also the much more material exploitation when people's artwork, usually people who are somehow marginalized gets stolen by institutions and they aren't given any credit for it. This can either be with exploitative contracts or by literally stealing it without facing legal repercussions, which happens. It becomes cultural appropriation when those people are marginalized because of their culture, or are part of a marginalized culture.
>There's also the implications certain symbols have in one culture which don't necessarily exist in another that you need to watch out for, mostly because of how much of a faux pas it is.
Reading of how some people feel over something this meaningless simply makes me think of genocide and other actually meaningful things people can to do each other.

In short, this is all silly.

  No.2314

>>2312
so ordinarily I'd try to help you understand my case, but I don't think you're trying to understand my case. I think you're trying to attack me. The evidence is right there when you say
>this seems like pointless whining on the part of those who are annoyed
to which I would say so what? taking issue with something isn't "whining," unless you want to say you're "just whining" about my arguments. which you seem to be, by not elaborating on any of your points.

> Both Greeks and Vikings had dreadlocks

-ghe greeks weren't white
-viking actually did not have dreadlocks, because it is impossible for their hair to form dreads naturally. Vikings braided their hair.
Also, nowhere did I say "black people invented dreadlocks," so you're attacking a strawman there.

The rest of your post isn't actually an argument, except for the
>why care about this thing when you can care about this much worse thing???
which I'm not going to deliberate why you are wrong on, because there are better things to care about ;p

  No.2317

>>2311
They're deleting your posts because they are low quality shit that don't contribute at all to the discussion and only serve to bump it. No one gives a shit if you thought it was funny and people here don't feel like they need someone else to post that something was funny in order to laugh. That's part of being on a slower board.

  No.2319

>>2316
I think you confused this place for 4chan mate.

>>2192
I don't think the human brain isn't fully capable of coming up with truly original ideas. Instead we end up taking inspiration from different things our brains take in and combine them together into something else. So when people get upset about very simple cultural appropriation they are telling people to stop doing what they did to get their ideas in the first place.

It's only bad when someone gets deluded or fucked over.

  No.2325

>>2321
I find it hard to take anyone who says "cucк" seriously because it's usually a giant red flag that the poster isn't aware of their own personal flaws and think they're a manly man.

>>2322

Yet you talk like many people on 4chan and your posts are of the same quality.

  No.2329

>>2310
>it's someone from a colonizing culture -taking- something from a colonized culture, where elements of that colonized culture would ordinarily be stigmatized
Ok. That's not the definition that you'll often see used but the term hasn't really settled into a definition yet. What counts as colonising vs colonised? There's the obvious examples of actual colonialism but you mention the west as being a colonising culture to Japan but it wouldn't be ordinary for us to stigmatise elements of Japanese culture.

>A white dude can do it, and doesn't have to fear getting fired, but if a black person does it then he has to fear looking "unprofessional."

That's just racism on the part of the employers.

>someone who's a part of a colonizing culture doesn't know a thing about the culture they're taking something from, for instance weeaboos and anime

Does it apply the other way with things like Japanese people using and misapplying aspects of our culture, like eating KFC for Christmas? Sure, KFC people did marketing to encourage this but then so did the anime people.

>There's also the much more material exploitation

That's a totally different thing that's just theft. Cultural artefacts are normal property and as different to culture itself as a piece of Roman pottery is to the Roman Empire.

>>2314
>-ghe greeks weren't white
I thought we were talking about culture not race? Most of western and middle eastern culture has very strong Greco-Roman origins because they invaded us.

>because it is impossible for their hair to form dreads naturally.

This is simply not true. I know from experience.

On the specific subject of dreads they go back to at least ancient Egypt, there was a lot of cultural appropriation (and invading) between them and Greece in ancient times and we have very few records of anything before that. Their actual origins are an utter mystery.

Here's the real problem though let's say it's clear cut and Egypt is definitely the source of dreadlocks. Where do you draw the lines of appropriation? Is it Egypt because that's the country? Middle-eastern because that's the ethnicity? Black because that's the colour of their skin? We draw these lines of who is and isn't entitled to some aspect of shared culture entirely arbitrarily and the difference between appropriating versus partaking depends entirely on where we place them. People are quick to point out that things get "misapplied" but this is something that happens constantly within the normal spread of an aspect of culture, look at how badly pepe got twisted. We just don't see it so easily with more distant cultures because we don't see the "proper" version of the idea before it catches on. Again it becomes a matter of defining arbitrary lines on who decides what's the proper version. If there isn't something else about the situation, like racism or theft that makes it bad then it's not in itself a problem.

  No.2342

>>2329
dreads are literally just what happen when you don't wash your hair for a long time.

  No.2343

I think it's a non-issue made up by people who have cognitive dissonance about globalism.

  No.2351

>>2329
>Ok. That's not the definition that you'll often see used but the term hasn't really settled into a definition yet
I think as someone earlier said this is the more academic usage, which is naturally more nuanced and circumstantial than mainstream usage. Mainstream usage is a distinct simulacrum on most sides of the debate, there is in fact no debate, just groups of people sharing resentments about "the other side"s argument.

>it wouldn't be ordinary for us to stigmatise elements of Japanese culture.

I dunno about where you live, but here Japanese culture is more often fetishized than stigmatized. Although it is also stigmatized - there is the history of exploitation of Japanese people in my country with labor camps and business discrimination. Speaking English with an accent or foreign words is definitely stigmatized, unless it's 2007 and you're a white person who speaks broken Japanese and likes anime. Make sense?
>That's just racism on the part of the employers.
Which the white dude is benefiting from.

>Does it apply the other way with things like Japanese people using and misapplying aspects of our culture, like eating KFC for Christmas? Sure, KFC people did marketing to encourage this but then so did the anime people.

I feel like at that point it stops being a question of who's acting for what culture and more a question of who's doing the marketing and the using.
Rich Japanese CEOs market anime as ~oriental~ is not a decision on the part of Japanese people victimized by orientalism, because they are rich and don't have to worry about, say, their increased value in human trafficking for being Japanese.

But beyond that, this just sounds like the usual "why is black people using elements of white culture not appropriation??" which I laid out earlier. Material colonization or exploitation seems to be present in all instances when cultural colonization also occurs, I would say cultural colonization can't be meaningfully discussed without material colonization as a subject matter. History matters.

>I thought we were talking about culture not race? Most of western and middle eastern culture has very strong Greco-Roman origins because they invaded us.

You may not be but the person I was replying to with that comment was very definitely referring to race

>This is simply not true. I know from experience.

you likely did not actually get dreads or used a different technique to achieve them:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreadlocks#Methods_of_making_dreadlocks
>>2342
they are not, see above

  No.2352

>>2351

> Speaking English with an accent or foreign words is definitely stigmatized, unless it's 2007 and you're a white person who speaks broken Japanese and likes anime.


Nobody likes weaboos mate. Nobody. I'd hire a Japanese person with broken English over a white kid with acne lugging around a dakimakura. I think a weeb is a bad example because most people look at them with a mixture of revulsion and pity.

Should we do something about all this cultural appropriation? Do we stop watching anime?

Man I honestly think that if you asked a bunch of Japanese people what they thought about a group of wankers overseas jerking it to JAV. I don't think they'd be super offended.


I don't want to sound like I'm attacking you. but ultimately talk of cultural appropriation contributes to nationalist sentiment.

You can't deny that, if it's us or the other guy I feel like nationalism is always wrong, and generally cultural exchange seems beneficial (in that it creates empathy and broadens minds). All you can get out of this kind of discussion is a bunch of arbitrary regulation, grown men arguing over whether it's appropriate to wear a sombrero or not; pitiful.

Can you give me a proven real negative aspect of 'cultural appropriation'? We're excluding of course someone proud of 'muh ancestry' or 'muh social justice' getting butthurt.

As a last aside:
KFC is obviously an important element of black culture, and aren't black people more discriminated against than the Japanese?? Screw you I'm going to jerk it to some JAV right now while I roll my white boy dreadlocks and there's nothing you can do to stop me.

  No.2359

>>2351
>I think as someone earlier said this is the more academic usage
I should note the academics have had plenty of arguments among themselves about the definition and really who cares? Words are just words, so long as we can all understand each other.

>Make sense?

No. Not at all. Sure xenophobia has been a thing in every culture but I still don't get what makes the west a "colonising" culture, while Japan is the "colonised" culture? What properties are there that don't apply both ways?

>Which the white dude is benefiting from.

Why does this matter? That any white guy would benefit generally from people favouring his race makes sense but there's still no connection between the stoner deciding to wear dreads and the boss deciding to be a racist. One is benign cultural appropriation, the other, just racism.

>Rich Japanese CEOs market anime as ~oriental~ is not a decision on the part of Japanese people

And I didn't have a say in the rich KFC CEOs marketing one of my cultural holidays to Japan, deliberately twisting it to include "eat KFC" in the process. Also the "Japanese people" is a very nebulous concept. It's not like they could ever actually make a decision like that, there's not even a cultural consensus. In light of that should they stop exporting/marketing it because they don't have the right? Who could they actually ask for that right?

>don't have to worry about, say, their increased value in human trafficking for being Japanese.

This is not a realistic concern. Japanese people marketing anime, or western people being weebs, has an utterly negligible impact upon human trafficking. Also, again, the KFC people are doing the same things and the value of any race as a slave has been the result of millennia of cultural motion from billions of actors. Pinning any real part of it on the KFC guys is just unfair and blaming anyone for subtly causing some other person to charge a different price for the human beings that they sell seems like stopping the buck in very much the wrong place.

Again, it's people doing normal benign things like exporting aspects of their culture and some other people performing a heinous practice with a marginal, non-causal connection between them.

>which I laid out earlier. Material colonization or exploitation seems to be present in all instances when cultural colonization also occurs

Right. Material colonization is clear but exploitation is a vague term. I'm still not sure how we've exploited the Japanese in ways that they haven't exploited us? What does "cultural colonisation" actually entail?

  No.2362

>>2291
>>2292
Completely agree.

People can still enjoy things that hit the mainstream unironically. Try not to get worked up about it, because that's what ruins it for you.

  No.2363

>>2194
I've seen posts on tumblr complaining about that, yeah. Its a retarded complaint, just like getting your panties in a knot about teenagers being dumb and geeking out about in dumb ways about media they like when its bad shonen and japanese vidya. As getting pissy or disgusted at the thought of adults liking some certain kind of media because...uh...dumb teenagers like stuff with with the same family of art styles, and dumb teenagers are the worst thing ever? Or because its marginally less popular than other nerdy shit, so thats good grounds to say they're worthless loser freaks? fuck off desu.
>>2284
>Because we're stupid enough to buy into the "kawaii desu desu~" mentality
you mean because japan is stupid enough to buy into kawaii(I dont even know what the hell mean by 'mentality'), because people like cute shit. Its generally not aimed at the export market. some people abroad just like it, so they can get something out of exporting it too.
>>2343
>cognitive dissonance about globalism.
hai very hontou. Thinking crap from other cultures is neat and using it for your own pleasure, often in a shallow way because you're not deeply fam iliar with the other culture, happens when cultures can interact very freely and see each others shit very often. Its also a way new things get made. One culture doing something from another culture 'inauthentically' creates something that *neither* culture had to begin with, and we like variety, yeah?
also, the notion of cultural apropriation as bad or meaningfull relies in part on stupid magical ideas that need a good smashing with the nihilism hammer.
>>2351
>History matters.
attempting to reify narratives about dead shit that no longer exists is for people with 8th grader syndrome.
oh, and I dont know anyone who likew anime who views it as ~~~oriental~~~

  No.2376

>>2359
>words are just words
missile launch codes are just numbers, not like they can hurt anyone. you know your credit card is just a bunch of numbers too, I think you should let me use it because how can it hurt anyone? they're just numbers.
>what properties are there that don't exist both ways?
size of economy, power on the global stage, and 2 atom bombs. I am referring to countries (USA vs Japan) rather than culture here, but that's because the lines are a little more clear-cut and I think we can work from there. Japanese culture is a diaspora from Japan and the United States is seen as the poster child of western culture, furthermore countries with the most western culture seem to have always taken a colonizing role towards countries in monsoon Asia, at least in the modern era.
Whether something is colonizing or colonized is of course temporally/contextually dependent, but you seem smart enough to realize that. Japan had an imperial period as well but then there were the aforementioned nukes.

>That any white guy would benefit generally from people favouring his race makes sense but there's still no connection between the stoner deciding to wear dreads and the boss deciding to be a racist.

Are you saying there isn't a causal link between the consequences of someone's appearance and their desire to appear that way? Obviously, the stoner wearing dreads doesn't cause the boss to be racist but the stoner clearly benefits from that situation.

>Also the "Japanese people" is a very nebulous concept

because I deliberately did not say "the japanese people," please read my point again and don't cut me off mid-sentence, it's rude. where did I say it should stop being exported? why are you pushing so heavily a statist rights and regulations narrative?

>blaming anyone for subtly causing some other person to charge a different price for the human beings that they sell seems like stopping the buck in very much the wrong place.

except they're points in a larger trend. obviously, we should get rid of human trafficking altogether but it's kind of ridiculous to ignore how USA attitudes have an impact on it.

>Again, it's people doing normal benign things like exporting aspects of their culture and some other people performing a heinous practice with a marginal, non-causal connection between them.

As someone who was so critical towards the idea of culture as an owned concept you seem to get pretty accepting of that when it's you making the statements.

  No.2377

>>2376 (cont'd)
>>2359
>I'm still not sure how we've exploited the Japanese in ways that they haven't exploited us? What does "cultural colonisation" actually entail?
I would say it covers a range of topics but some I can think of are: unfair compensation of individuals for the creation of items with a particular "cultural" brand, such as anime, due to the devaluation of said brand, attitudes which cause people not to be seen as people but rather as objects or not at all because of their foreignness, beauty standards which are more difficult or expensive for people of one ethnicity (and likely culture) than another, such as desire for blond hair, basically attitudes that encourage imperialism among colonizers or cause people to "act out" imperialism within their own environment after the colonizers have left.

>>2363
nobody's going to literally say "oriental" these days but maybe you could think about it a little more? I am talking about fetishization of foreign cultures, or if you're the sort who likes to shout "spook" at inappropriate times/volumes, foreign things, or "things which people perceive as foreign."

  No.2397

>>2377 and
>>2376 here..
I should probably add, I do think the idea of cultural origination is rather ridiculous, because like you said cultures are pretty hard to draw clear lines around and an attempt to do is harmfully nationalistic. Most cultures influence one another.

I'm more concerned with imperial attitudes that extend into the cultural sphere, and how both sides of the "cultural appropriation" debate might promote them. I think people who speak out against "cultural appropriation" often have good intentions to counter those attitudes, but can wind up making inconsistent arguments or catering to harmful sentiment.

I consider a lot of common examples to be lite versions of imperial attitudes, as in, they are bad and attacking the underlying problem means attacking them too, but still symptoms of a greater problem.

  No.2439

>>2363
>attempting to reify narratives about dead shit that no longer exists is for people with 8th grader syndrome.
are you serious? you think that learning from history is for eighth graders?

  No.2446

>>2351
Just because there are "methods" of making them doesn't mean everyone needs to try to make them. My hair locks up when I travel and spend a lot time camping. Swimming in the sea does it for some reason. I have had full dreads twice in my life without ever trying to.