lainchan archive - /civ/ - 2990
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https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/case-for-legalizing-sex-work-by-peter-singer-2016-11
>Based Amnesty Intn'l urging gubbs to repeal laws criminalizing the exchange of sex for money by consenting adults.
Questions for /civ/:
>Do you think legal sex work is /cyb/?
>Is sex work currently legal in your location?
>If sex work were legal for you to offer or receive, would you?
>Do you think legalized sex work will decrease the likelihood of illegal sex work?
>Based Amnesty Intn'l urging gubbs to repeal laws criminalizing the exchange of sex for money by consenting adults.
Questions for /civ/:
>Do you think legal sex work is /cyb/?
>Is sex work currently legal in your location?
>If sex work were legal for you to offer or receive, would you?
>Do you think legalized sex work will decrease the likelihood of illegal sex work?
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(Former sex worker here)
I'm speaking only towards adult transactions - pedos can fuarrrk off and hang.
>Do you think legal sex work is /cyb/?
Yes. It can be used effectively as a form of control and eventually sex bots will provide fierce competition to their human counterparts.
>Is sex work currently legal in your location?
No, but it doesn't stop the trade one bit. Laws basically amount to fines and you really can't turn a hoe into a housewife.
>If sex work were legal for you to offer or receive, would you?
yes. It's more the stigma associated with prostitution along with political agendas that keep it down in western society.
>Do you think legalized sex work will decrease the likelihood of illegal sex work?
yes. Some people do it simply because it feels so illicit and get off on breaking the law and sneaking around. Telling people not to do something just makes it more appealing.
I'm speaking only towards adult transactions - pedos can fuarrrk off and hang.
>Do you think legal sex work is /cyb/?
Yes. It can be used effectively as a form of control and eventually sex bots will provide fierce competition to their human counterparts.
>Is sex work currently legal in your location?
No, but it doesn't stop the trade one bit. Laws basically amount to fines and you really can't turn a hoe into a housewife.
>If sex work were legal for you to offer or receive, would you?
yes. It's more the stigma associated with prostitution along with political agendas that keep it down in western society.
>Do you think legalized sex work will decrease the likelihood of illegal sex work?
yes. Some people do it simply because it feels so illicit and get off on breaking the law and sneaking around. Telling people not to do something just makes it more appealing.
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>https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/case-for-legalizing-sex-work-by-peter-singer-2016-11
This is such an immoral tumblr-tier argument, almost as bad as legalizing recreational drugs.
But what can you expect from globalist drones tbh
This is such an immoral tumblr-tier argument, almost as bad as legalizing recreational drugs.
But what can you expect from globalist drones tbh
>>2992
>neurosuggesting globalist drones aren't the ones against recreational drug legalization
It is national governments that choose to go against global order who are legalizing drugs. So far only Uruguay legalized marijuana on a national level. Other countries are still under the global rule of US hegemony.
>neurosuggesting globalist drones aren't the ones against recreational drug legalization
It is national governments that choose to go against global order who are legalizing drugs. So far only Uruguay legalized marijuana on a national level. Other countries are still under the global rule of US hegemony.
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>>2992
What the fuarrrk does legalizing drugs and sex work have to do with globalism?
And why the fuarrrk should my laws reflect your morality? It's immoral to ban someone from doing something that doesn't inherently harm or infringe upon anyone else. So long as you pay your taxes and stay off my lawn I don't care if you snort a few gator tails and let Sigma Alpha pay you 3k to run train on you.
What the fuarrrk does legalizing drugs and sex work have to do with globalism?
And why the fuarrrk should my laws reflect your morality? It's immoral to ban someone from doing something that doesn't inherently harm or infringe upon anyone else. So long as you pay your taxes and stay off my lawn I don't care if you snort a few gator tails and let Sigma Alpha pay you 3k to run train on you.
Work is never /cyb/.
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I don't have much to say RE: legalizing sex work, because I think the very fact that it's still illegal in a lot of first-world countries just points to ridiculous puritanical holdovers in our Western culture, rather than any real serious political questions. People should be free to do whatever they see fit with their bodies.
Side note: I think that sex work is nonetheless kind of the opposite of empowering. Maybe this is just me, but even though I feel like everyone ought to be able to sell their labor power in the market and be a "free" economic agent, that doesn't detract from the fact that selling your labor power - essentially renting out your body - is inherently alienating. Opening up more markets for selling your body is possibly more empowering insofar as more people are able to earn a wage and therefore survive, but I feel like there's nothing more directly alienating than selling your body full-stop, without even a thin layer of ideology to mitigate things.
Maybe that's just because I wouldn't be comfortable/confident enough to do something like that, though. Maybe most people are sexual enough that they'd be fine with it.
>>3012
also, this decker gets it. Abolish work tbh
Side note: I think that sex work is nonetheless kind of the opposite of empowering. Maybe this is just me, but even though I feel like everyone ought to be able to sell their labor power in the market and be a "free" economic agent, that doesn't detract from the fact that selling your labor power - essentially renting out your body - is inherently alienating. Opening up more markets for selling your body is possibly more empowering insofar as more people are able to earn a wage and therefore survive, but I feel like there's nothing more directly alienating than selling your body full-stop, without even a thin layer of ideology to mitigate things.
Maybe that's just because I wouldn't be comfortable/confident enough to do something like that, though. Maybe most people are sexual enough that they'd be fine with it.
>>3012
also, this decker gets it. Abolish work tbh
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Channel 4 in the UK did a documentary on legal sex workers in Germany, and It was pretty horrifying.
What seemed to happen in Germany was that once it was legalised, every town and even little village, never-mind the cities, had a brothel start up. After a while, those who were already rich invested in creating mega-brothels. They're like hotels, but instead the women rent/live in the rooms. These hotel-brothels charge quite a lot for their rent, and defend this by saying not only do they provide a space to live, but they bring the customers to the women.
In order to cover the rent, the women (who quite a high proportion are immigrants) have to fuarrrk around 9 men a night. And most of the women are working 5 days a week, if not more. So do the math...5x9 is 45 men. That's around 180 a month.
The women are almost ran ragged trying to keep up. And if they can't keep up with the pace, the hotel-brothel kicks them out. It's an absolutely soykafty way to live.
But not only this, the effect on German males is...not good. The percentage of males in Germany who've paid for sex skyrocketed after legalisation. The documentary had interviews with guys who pretty much lived in the lounges of these hotel-brothels. Many of them took the attitude of "who needs romance any more when I can just go to brothel?"
The normalisation of sex work seemed to be creating a really negative attitude amongst the men. They seemed to have a low opinion of women, just treating them as product that can be bought and sold. There were married men at these brothels, of course, as well.
Overall, it just came off that the women were not in a particularly better situation, being treated like battery-hens, while the men were being tainted by the atmosphere.
I'm sure keeping it illegal is no picnic either, but this just didn't feel right at all. There was a sense of Roman debauchery about it.
What seemed to happen in Germany was that once it was legalised, every town and even little village, never-mind the cities, had a brothel start up. After a while, those who were already rich invested in creating mega-brothels. They're like hotels, but instead the women rent/live in the rooms. These hotel-brothels charge quite a lot for their rent, and defend this by saying not only do they provide a space to live, but they bring the customers to the women.
In order to cover the rent, the women (who quite a high proportion are immigrants) have to fuarrrk around 9 men a night. And most of the women are working 5 days a week, if not more. So do the math...5x9 is 45 men. That's around 180 a month.
The women are almost ran ragged trying to keep up. And if they can't keep up with the pace, the hotel-brothel kicks them out. It's an absolutely soykafty way to live.
But not only this, the effect on German males is...not good. The percentage of males in Germany who've paid for sex skyrocketed after legalisation. The documentary had interviews with guys who pretty much lived in the lounges of these hotel-brothels. Many of them took the attitude of "who needs romance any more when I can just go to brothel?"
The normalisation of sex work seemed to be creating a really negative attitude amongst the men. They seemed to have a low opinion of women, just treating them as product that can be bought and sold. There were married men at these brothels, of course, as well.
Overall, it just came off that the women were not in a particularly better situation, being treated like battery-hens, while the men were being tainted by the atmosphere.
I'm sure keeping it illegal is no picnic either, but this just didn't feel right at all. There was a sense of Roman debauchery about it.
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>>2991
>(Former sex worker here)
Thank you for sharing your experience. I do agree that telling people not to do something or banning it makes it more appealing. Would you mind sharing why you left the trade?
>>3012
>Work is never /cyb/.
Ayyy lmao. We haven't figured out utopia yet, Lain. A well-timed CME, supervolcano, or unilateral actions by imperial nations could one day wipe out automation and power banks in your nation of residence.
What's your back-up plan? How do you continue to live?
>(Former sex worker here)
Thank you for sharing your experience. I do agree that telling people not to do something or banning it makes it more appealing. Would you mind sharing why you left the trade?
>>3012
>Work is never /cyb/.
Ayyy lmao. We haven't figured out utopia yet, Lain. A well-timed CME, supervolcano, or unilateral actions by imperial nations could one day wipe out automation and power banks in your nation of residence.
What's your back-up plan? How do you continue to live?
>>3044
It was a combination of things. Shelf life is one, personal safety is the other. I didn't work in the stereotypical way as in walking the street and waiting for cars to pull up, I mainly did house calls and it didn't always involve having sex. In my city, the police started to really crack down on sex workers so private brothels were being raided and prostitution rings were being exposed. On top of this, most of my clients were married women and I started to getting heat from that as well so it was time to get out while I was ahead.
I have a decent level of education so after bouncing around different temp jobs and working for friends, I eventually started a business. A "real" one that is but now I sell actual products instead of a service hah.
It was a combination of things. Shelf life is one, personal safety is the other. I didn't work in the stereotypical way as in walking the street and waiting for cars to pull up, I mainly did house calls and it didn't always involve having sex. In my city, the police started to really crack down on sex workers so private brothels were being raided and prostitution rings were being exposed. On top of this, most of my clients were married women and I started to getting heat from that as well so it was time to get out while I was ahead.
I have a decent level of education so after bouncing around different temp jobs and working for friends, I eventually started a business. A "real" one that is but now I sell actual products instead of a service hah.
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Where I live, it's not only illegal for the sex worker, but also for the client (a fine up to 3k5 if you get caught, though I heard in the news that the maximum someone paid until now was 400 or something).
And, in all honesty, it worked for me. Not the fine, but the shame of having everybody know that I go to whores was enough to dissuade me.
Even though I know I probably won't get caught: I live not so far away from the streets where most hookers of my city hang out, and they seem to be doing fine.
I do think it's stupid to forbid sex work. But I'm not really into the "I think people should be able to do what they want with their bodies". I don't think it's particularly good for society.
It's just in my self-interest to have sex work legalized. Or at the very least, not punished. A bit like weed : no cop really cares when he sees a teen smoke his pot, they only enforce law for big dealers, big criminal networks, etc.
I'm not really looking for a relationship, and I don't want to waste a whole evening looking for a one-nighter just for a 5 seconds orgasm.
It doesn't change the fact that I have urges though.
I probably wouldn't go often if it was legal. It disgusts me more than it attracts me. But some days, some evenings, the loneliness is just too much to bear.
And, in all honesty, it worked for me. Not the fine, but the shame of having everybody know that I go to whores was enough to dissuade me.
Even though I know I probably won't get caught: I live not so far away from the streets where most hookers of my city hang out, and they seem to be doing fine.
I do think it's stupid to forbid sex work. But I'm not really into the "I think people should be able to do what they want with their bodies". I don't think it's particularly good for society.
It's just in my self-interest to have sex work legalized. Or at the very least, not punished. A bit like weed : no cop really cares when he sees a teen smoke his pot, they only enforce law for big dealers, big criminal networks, etc.
I'm not really looking for a relationship, and I don't want to waste a whole evening looking for a one-nighter just for a 5 seconds orgasm.
It doesn't change the fact that I have urges though.
I probably wouldn't go often if it was legal. It disgusts me more than it attracts me. But some days, some evenings, the loneliness is just too much to bear.
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>>3064
>I'm not really looking for a relationship
>But some days, some evenings, the loneliness is just too much to bear.
Listen man, it's alright if you don't think a relationship is for you. It's also alright if you feel lonely. But don't complain about loneliness if you're not even trying to absolve that loneliness in a meaningful way. That's some Wizardchan bullsoykaf right there.
>I'm not really looking for a relationship
>But some days, some evenings, the loneliness is just too much to bear.
Listen man, it's alright if you don't think a relationship is for you. It's also alright if you feel lonely. But don't complain about loneliness if you're not even trying to absolve that loneliness in a meaningful way. That's some Wizardchan bullsoykaf right there.
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>>3050
>most of my clients were married women and I started to getting heat from that as well
Makes sense. Don't house calls increase the chances of being caught by a spouse?
>I have a decent level of education so after bouncing around different temp jobs and working for friends, I eventually started a business. A "real" one that is but now I sell actual products instead of a service hah.
You ever miss selling service?
>most of my clients were married women and I started to getting heat from that as well
Makes sense. Don't house calls increase the chances of being caught by a spouse?
>I have a decent level of education so after bouncing around different temp jobs and working for friends, I eventually started a business. A "real" one that is but now I sell actual products instead of a service hah.
You ever miss selling service?
>>3064
Why don't you just get a good sex toy and find some good female friends? Or just friends in general.
I think sex work is okay, but since there is so much risk of STDs and getting preggers, I'd rather just see the sex toy industry get a major boost because then you wouldn't have women and men having to spend hours at the doctors for STDs and stuff.
Why don't you just get a good sex toy and find some good female friends? Or just friends in general.
I think sex work is okay, but since there is so much risk of STDs and getting preggers, I'd rather just see the sex toy industry get a major boost because then you wouldn't have women and men having to spend hours at the doctors for STDs and stuff.
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>>3143
They do but it was mostly playing house while the spouse was away. In some cases, it was outside of my control in that they wanted their husband to know *something* was up as a form of revenge (sometimes even phoning their spouse while I was over). Other times the thrill of being caught is actually what made it appealing so, exiting from a window became the norm for me at one point.
I do miss it. Not really out of habit but in those circumstances, it was a way for me to have some kind of relationship without the drama of attachment. At times it honestly felt like I was some kind of marriage counselor with pillow talk but it was pretty raw insight into why they were doing this.
So now, I sell keyboards.
They do but it was mostly playing house while the spouse was away. In some cases, it was outside of my control in that they wanted their husband to know *something* was up as a form of revenge (sometimes even phoning their spouse while I was over). Other times the thrill of being caught is actually what made it appealing so, exiting from a window became the norm for me at one point.
I do miss it. Not really out of habit but in those circumstances, it was a way for me to have some kind of relationship without the drama of attachment. At times it honestly felt like I was some kind of marriage counselor with pillow talk but it was pretty raw insight into why they were doing this.
So now, I sell keyboards.
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>>3150
>it was pretty raw insight into why they were doing this.
So why were they doing it in your experience?
Years ago when I was underageb& I'd cam with bored housewives, usually late 20's/early 30's in exchange for online purchases or just for fun. The only pattern I noticed at the time was that the husband was often rarely around and the women were often left alone at home with not a lot to do. I think it's a valid enough reason to fool around online.
>it was pretty raw insight into why they were doing this.
So why were they doing it in your experience?
Years ago when I was underageb& I'd cam with bored housewives, usually late 20's/early 30's in exchange for online purchases or just for fun. The only pattern I noticed at the time was that the husband was often rarely around and the women were often left alone at home with not a lot to do. I think it's a valid enough reason to fool around online.
having massage legal and prostitution illegal is the greatest hypocrisy of our society.
Everyone has a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness and no one else has the right to take that right away from someone else. It's as simple as that. Do you believe in freedom or tyranny? If you refuse to allow others to live their lives in peace and insist on controlling others then you're a tyrant and a rather terrible person. There's no escaping that.
>>3251
actually it's even simpler than that.
rights are a sort of cultural custom that exist only in the same sense as unicorns or witches. they are easily shaped by the manner of storytelling and your own fantasy, but you'll only ever find ones made by paper, clay, etc. it's best not to spend too much time with such fantasy stuff.
actually it's even simpler than that.
rights are a sort of cultural custom that exist only in the same sense as unicorns or witches. they are easily shaped by the manner of storytelling and your own fantasy, but you'll only ever find ones made by paper, clay, etc. it's best not to spend too much time with such fantasy stuff.
>>3263
I understand that "rights" are man made constructs and that our perception of reality is subjective and malleable, but if we're going to go with the everything is subjective mentality then why not throw everything out? In that case, would me killing you for being a prostitute and me leaving you to live your life the way you choose both be equally valid positions on prostitution?
>>3266
While you can do whatever you want on your property as long as you aren't harming others, you are responsible for harm you cause to others. Freedom and personal responsibility goes both ways. I need to respect you and you need to respect me if either of us want to be free.
I understand that "rights" are man made constructs and that our perception of reality is subjective and malleable, but if we're going to go with the everything is subjective mentality then why not throw everything out? In that case, would me killing you for being a prostitute and me leaving you to live your life the way you choose both be equally valid positions on prostitution?
>>3266
While you can do whatever you want on your property as long as you aren't harming others, you are responsible for harm you cause to others. Freedom and personal responsibility goes both ways. I need to respect you and you need to respect me if either of us want to be free.
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>>3263
>rights are a sort of cultural custom that exist only in the same sense as unicorns or witches. they are easily shaped by the manner of storytelling and your own fantasy, but you'll only ever find ones made by paper, clay, etc. it's best not to spend too much time with such fantasy stuff.
Fantasy? Some crazy motherfuckers are willing drop nukes (and more!) to save those 'unicorns'. The only paper tigers are the ones bred in captivity.
>rights are a sort of cultural custom that exist only in the same sense as unicorns or witches. they are easily shaped by the manner of storytelling and your own fantasy, but you'll only ever find ones made by paper, clay, etc. it's best not to spend too much time with such fantasy stuff.
Fantasy? Some crazy motherfuckers are willing drop nukes (and more!) to save those 'unicorns'. The only paper tigers are the ones bred in captivity.
Spreading sexual disease doesn't help anybody
but emotionless prostitution and slime pimps are pretty low life.
but emotionless prostitution and slime pimps are pretty low life.
>>3274
Indeed, both are pretty valid. Furthermore, in either case anyone or anything is free to react in any way. That includes your current government sentencing you to jail for a murder if you do that, but I can imagine a sort of vigilante group painting everything yellow in your home with all kinds of paint for -not- killing me, a lowly prostitute.
And of course anyone may do anything in the meantime to anyone for any reason.
>>3418
twinkle twinkle little star
I don't think I ever said the tigers are made of paper. But just like you can make a bull run into objects by waving a little red cloth in front of them, you can make these tigers go at each other for decades by waving a piece of paper with made-up dogmas (that supposedly reflect reality) written on it.
My point is quite simple, people need to realize that human rights are similar in nature to Santa Claus. It's made up, makes the target audience behave in a certain desired manner, and then everyone's happy; It is not intrinsic to reality or humanity or anything, it's an after-the fact trick. I don't want people to abandon using them, but there are so many activists and lawyers and politicians who think of some rights (the 'important' ones especially) the same way as kids think of Santa Claus. Rights are part of a game, and stop existing as soon as the people stop playing the game - e.g. when you're alone in the middle of nowhere with people who don't care about playing that game with those rights. If you still do, it's your job to keep your fantasy game going while you deal with the reality.
Indeed, both are pretty valid. Furthermore, in either case anyone or anything is free to react in any way. That includes your current government sentencing you to jail for a murder if you do that, but I can imagine a sort of vigilante group painting everything yellow in your home with all kinds of paint for -not- killing me, a lowly prostitute.
And of course anyone may do anything in the meantime to anyone for any reason.
>>3418
twinkle twinkle little star
I don't think I ever said the tigers are made of paper. But just like you can make a bull run into objects by waving a little red cloth in front of them, you can make these tigers go at each other for decades by waving a piece of paper with made-up dogmas (that supposedly reflect reality) written on it.
My point is quite simple, people need to realize that human rights are similar in nature to Santa Claus. It's made up, makes the target audience behave in a certain desired manner, and then everyone's happy; It is not intrinsic to reality or humanity or anything, it's an after-the fact trick. I don't want people to abandon using them, but there are so many activists and lawyers and politicians who think of some rights (the 'important' ones especially) the same way as kids think of Santa Claus. Rights are part of a game, and stop existing as soon as the people stop playing the game - e.g. when you're alone in the middle of nowhere with people who don't care about playing that game with those rights. If you still do, it's your job to keep your fantasy game going while you deal with the reality.