[ art / civ / cult / cyb / diy / drg / feels / layer / lit / λ / q / r / sci / sec / tech / w / zzz ] archive provided by lainchan.jp

lainchan archive - /cyb/ - 30906

File: 1465916579026.png (157.97 KB, 300x300, CkmHiA_UgAA6iyn.jpg large.jpg)


I've hovered this board for a while but never really participated in much. Although I would like your opinions on something like this.

If you're familiar with Mirrors Edge, you'd know what I'm talking about purely by the subject. More or less, do you know of any "real life" runners or if it's even possible to do? That is, people delivering high importance items/documents/illegal shit to a client via, well, running, more or less? It's just an interesting thought. The world as we know it is becoming more under watch, cameras watching us from every angle, our phones being hacked to listen to our conversations, collecting our meta data. Would it work to have such a simple method of local delivery, if things truly did become... as /cyb/ as things seem to be going? Not necessarily a strictly following Mirrors Edge thread, just the idea of "running" a job. Thoughts?


you mean parkour?


Well, sort of. Not parkour as a sport, but more of a utilizing that capability to do that work I mentioned above, in a heavily monitored world.


Not gonna lie it might be the only solution to transfer stuff in the future


Well, you know, there was a story from 4chan...


File: 1465917238522.png (109.72 KB, 200x134, 6288502986fecc2357686ugq6c_1.png)

Found it.


More like this?



That's pretty fucked up, but I'm not sure what angle you're going for. You suggesting couriers will be used to transfer nastier stuff like that?


It's just a proof of existence of those runners.


Why would anyone give their super important secret documents to some shady criminal when they can just encrypt the document with PGP and send it over online? Come on.




As you wish. I think they exist.


To hide the fact the message was transfered.


It's like any other illegal activity. You DON'T go through someone shady but someone that you have come to trust, or who is recommended by someone you trust. There is a rather large illegal economy in the world, it all functions somehow.

I suppose I just opened a can of worms re: what constitutes "shady" or not but anyway.


I don't know if I'd consider that being a "runner", but it definitely sounds like some form of courier used internationally. I feel like if you're trying to hide that stuff, you wouldn't make it so accessible by some shmuck at work lol. I'd take it with a giant mountain of salt, man.

Who said anything about shady? Just because someone performing a service like this, unaware of the contents, doesn't make them shady. It's just a running job, delivering a message or recovering data/a message, even if the contents are illegal/undesired by most.

Pretty much this. Depends what you define as "shady".



Plus, of course you encrypt the stuff that the courier is transporting. Sure you trust them somewhat, but not that much.


I find it hard to believe that in a world where we can't send files without being traced we will be able to run around the city without the millions of CCTV cameras identifying our mugs.


this is my job on a Yamaha, except I deliver food. I would love to deliver docs and shit too but the other company also like you to deliver gross hospital shit (literlly shit, a biker buddy took a shit sample the other day, before using the same box to deliver food) Its pretty cyber cause I get "mission" orders sent to my phone and go many different locations. I also once "ran" from the cops cause I was sick of them pulling me over, yeah I got away fuck them.


...oh and hard-dox are still very valid for legal papers needing signing etc. This is a job that needs doing, just on the roads rather than running on rooftops.


That's always seemed odd to me, since it's much easier to counterfeit paper docs than it is to do the same with a cryptographic signature.


They are literally called mules.

Locally the perps would employ someone who doesn't look like a potential perp and needs money.


There's a marijuana distributor in one city I know of which fronts as a legitimate bicycle courier company. Regular couriers are everywhere there so they blend in. With the way drug laws are turning in this country, they will be out of business in a few years though.


File: 1465949949543.png (197.91 KB, 200x113, premium-rush.jpg)

whats this called? could you point us to some companies that do this?

OP you might like this movie


Dude it's called being a courier, same as it always was only now with motorcycles instead of runners or horses.



Because the ability to correlate casual relationships is much easier than correlating most of what we worry about in terms of personal correlation. But in a world where a business stands to lose money if, lets say, they were found to be in a position to be bought by a company; they would find it advantageous to hide that relationship.

In Vegas, where I lived for nearly a decade during my formative years, I saw many runner type jobs. Particularly regarding sports betting. Cellular phone are disallowed in the sports book area so people who collect data and wager on sports utilize runners.

There have been cases where runners have also been used with poker confederate teams. I was one for a brief period. My sole job was to know who a certain set of people where, and inform the team in person when they were spotted at their favorite watering holes. Like the high-limit tables at the Bellagio. Then they would try to insert 2 or 3 of their confederates into the same table where they begin signaling and working the game. And it's because casinos are so good with their identification that it becomes harder and harder to maintain anonymity when you spend collective months at a casino trying to squeeze every percentage point out of their wagers.

That's not to mention how much drug dealers utilize runners. A huge portion of their logistics involve decoupling the money transactions from the supply. So runners are a common method of couriering the supply to a customer after the purchase. And you have everything to lose when a pound of methamphetamine goes for an incredible sum. Not only do you worry about LE, but rival drug dealers and their associated "syndicates".

If it wouldn't implicate myself so much to retell my personal stories, I'd elaborate further, but yes. Couriers/runners are a thing.


I watched that movie by accident and I actuallly liked the idea a lot.
I actually recently bought a bike hoping I can survive doing this.
But right now I haven't yet moved to the city where I want to move (and in this shitty town there's nothing).
So... wish me luck? Actually if anyone knows about this and has some advice to give I'll be very grateful


There's plenty of bike courier services, but I doubt there's much money in it. The food companies are pretty common, I see plenty of em riding around with their food boxes making deliveries in the evenings.


I dont believe they will exist in the way that video game does it for quite some time, maybe farther in the future it is a possibility. When doing illicit things through the internet is so diffcult you have courier with USB going to dead drops or the actual person themselves to do these things.


Just look up documentaries about it on youtube. There's no money in it, most of them are piss-poor. If you want to ride bikes for a living, you're better served joining a professional team. You'd need actual skill for that, though.


>I doubt there's much money in it.
For a healthy 18-25 year old who wants to get by and stay in shape for a few years, it beats washing dishes or answering phones. If you can hack it that is, and I know I never would. It's quite dangerous actually, being on the road for that many hours in the busiest streets. The only reason there's a market for it is that bikes are more maneuverable and quicker/cheaper than cars over short distances under those conditions.

Remember the skaters in Snowcrash and the solidarity they had? Bike messengers are very much that way, they watch out for each other. I've heard tales of aggressive motorists being left in alleys with their necks u-locked to utility poles, etc. A lot of the people I knew who were messengers for a few years were missing teeth. They all have funny stories to tell though.


As an avid city cyclist I can tell you that that movie was basically the "stereotypical cheesy hacker movie" of bike films. I mean it was entertaining, but not realistic in the least.


If you're a kid in a big city in the US you can make money by carrying plastic bags of crack in your mouth on the subway to dealers. Does this count?


technically yes


Well, technically.

We didn't call them runners though. It was 'courier' or 'rabbit'

Receive phone call, pick up package from drop, take to another drop, receive another phone call, pick up cash at different drop.

Its designed to be inconspicuous. Blending in in plain sight. Running on the rooftops is not inconspicuous.


This is a creepypasta, lainon. There's a genre of creepypasta that's "darknet" themed.

This is how you can tell:

>"sniff" the WEP password

>"Drop a backdoor"
>"My worm"
>"I thought it was an MPEG file, so I easily broke the decryption"

Good read though. Should start a lit thread for these...



As an aside, and more of an autist thing, in Vegas we were called runners.


Anyway, it's WEP. It's real to bruteforce it.
Maybe a backdoor on the AP that could infect all the incoming unencrypted files with the >worm.
You're right here, but it depends on the encryption type.

Why do I say it is a proof? If DICE, OP and that anon thought of that they can transfer info by couriers, so thought others.



I'm 50/50 on the pasta. It's a very specific thing to 'sniff' a password and to bruteforce WEP after grabbing enough IV's to crack it. I would think the pasta anon would've been autist enough to be specific in this regard



Usually a worm delivers the payload that gives you a shell. Not the other way around. But if it's something that's specifically used to infect other computers then I suppose that's a valid usage of the term if he first gains a shell, then delivers something to gain more privilege on the network by infecting others.


If it's bcrypt, okay. DES? Still needs a good chunk of computation, not exactly trivial but very doable. Took a world wide network to crack it. RSA? Same thing as DES at the lowest defaults. Ad-hoc? Probably not. Unless it was a retardedly simple plaintext XOR password = ciphertext deal.

If he had access and it was connected to other networks, I don't see why he didn't see them. Just list the interfaces. Known protocol or not, you're going to need to have some sort of routing interface to receive the traffic from. Why he didn't elaborate on that, who knows.

Another plausible explanation for the slightly out of sync terminology could be that he didn't want to overload that thread with jargon. I've done the same thing. Simply paraphrased what would normally make an autist on a /tech/ board sperg about.

So meh. 50/50.


File: 1466168815265.png (16.99 KB, 200x15, b.png)


>If it's bcrypt, okay.
bcrypt is not an encryption algorithm, it is a hashing algorithm. Two entirely different things.
>DES? Still needs a good chunk of computation, not exactly trivial but very doable
If you've got ~10000 dollars to throw at specialized hardware, yes. In this scenario, no.
>RSA? Same thing as DES at the lowest defaults.
1024-bit RSA is probably crackable for the NSA, but not for a random guy posting stories on an imageboard.

Besides, knowing the filetype of an encrypted file has absolutely nothing to do with being able to decrypt it. Known-plaintext attacks are a thing, but just guessing the file type? Come on.


This is exactly what I meant re: "broke the encryption, it was easy once I knew it was an MPEG file"

>It's a very specific thing to 'sniff' a password and to bruteforce WEP after grabbing enough IV's to crack it.

Exactly. You can't just "sniff" a WEP key from an authentication. To crack a WEP key, the AP needs to be in use enough for you to replay the packets and generate new IVs. Yeah, WEP has been broken into little tiny pieces, but you'd still need SOME traffic and the story explicitly states that there wasn't any network traffic.

Also why broadcast the network?

And last, mafiosos are some of the most conservative people in the world. Some of the most amoral will host child porn because there's a market for it, but on the other hand, I've never seen that in the wild, or read about a bust, so maybe I'm misinformed about that. Kiddie snuff porn is something most mafiosos would just kill you for.


File: 1466196819038.png (104.83 KB, 200x63, serveimage.jpeg)

IDK how realistic this movie is, but it's interesting because it puts the whole parkour courier spy stuff in a more convincing light. I think that in densely populated cities, there must still be couriers. Just not the Mirror's Edge stupidity with lone runners on blank white rooftops, exposed to the world.



>bcrypt is not ...


>if you..

Redundant, don't need specialized hardware, but yes you need resources. Okay...

>RSA is only....

No. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSA_Factoring_Challenge


That's a tool using the Blowfish algorithm, not the bcrypt algorithm, which would be this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bcrypt
Anyways, for what we know right now, Blowfish at least as secure as AES (Blowfish even was a finalist in the AES selection process), if not more.
Theoretical attacks in the form of biclique attacks exist for AES, whereas no attacks are known to work against blowfish, so this point is moot either way. You can't crack Blowfish right now, no matter what.
>Redundant, don't need specialized hardware, but yes you need resources. Okay...
The cheapest way to bruteforce DES is probably by getting a COPACOBANA, which, last time I heard about it, cost around 10000 dollars.
Of course you can waste more money by building your own bruteforcer, but okay.
>No. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSA_Factoring_Challenge
Did you actually read that page? 1024-bit RSA has not been cracked yet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSA_numbers#RSA-1024
Even in 2011, which is when the post in the screenshot was made, 1024-bit keys were the de facto lowest defaults.


Well, scratch the part about Blowfish being an AES candidate, that was Twofish. Damn Bruce Schneier and his naming schemes.
The other points still stand, there's no attack known to break full-Blowfish.


>>That's a tool using the Blowfish algorithm
Welll what do yo uthink i was referring to numb nuts.

>>Did you actually read that page?

Yes, I'm versed in this specifically. I was pointing out the edge cases how easy it would be to "magically decrypt" something. And using a simple either it's in the realm of possibility or not. If it's in the realm of possibility then lets assume the story could proceed as a possibility of reality.

>>defacto lowest defaults

Yes, maybe. Also depending on the NONCE they use and other factors. But I'm not going to get into it with you here since it's digressing from the point (the pasta). More often than not, implementations of crypto do not provide good defaults.


etc... this list is much more exhaustive. The first list is how defaults in software can fail, the second is another such case, the third is mostly a 'why' you can fail case.

So back to the pasta.


>Welll what do yo uthink i was referring to numb nuts.
There's no need to insult me. Maybe try using the actual name of the algorithm next time instead of just listing one of many tools using said algorithm to avoid confusion.
And I still don't know where you got the idea from that Blowfish is somehow easier to crack than DES.
>More often than not, implementations of crypto do not provide good defaults.
This may be the case, but using a key length of less than 1024 bit for RSA is more than just a bad default, it's just absolute insanity and incompatible with pretty much every other implementation in existence.
>So back to the pasta.
The pasta is obvious bullshit. Don't get me wrong, I like creepypasta as much as the next guy, but trying to search for any kind of plausibility in one is an exercise in futility.
So why not just treat it for what it is, a piece of fiction, instead of trying to "prove" it?


Why are we talking crypto in a thread about Mirror's Edge?


Because of that one creepypasta, duh.
But I know, derailed threads are not cool. I'll just shut up now.


File: 1466208079701-0.png (253.62 KB, 200x123, IMG_00013.jpg)

File: 1466208079701-1.png (56.25 KB, 200x95, mercslair.jpg)

As mentioned a couple of times in the thread, they already exist in a manner of speaking; they're called couriers. William Gibson featured in a documentary about them in the 90s: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQMJhapH1Z8

I don't think we'll see anything on MIrror's Edge levels until the population density of major skyrocket; only then would a network of a freerunning lads make sense imho. There's a reason why we don't see them huddle up in dilapidated water towers.


*major cities
maybe it's already a thing in the East.


No trying to prove it, more like, huh, this is why I bet on the long odds that I ''might'' be true. And why I thought so.


To raise his autist thing with my autist thing,
We didn't operate in Vegas. We operated everywhere [i]except[/i] Vegas.



Guess that makes me the special snowflake huh? ;)




How about traveling via sewer systems? It seems like a decent way to travel while remaining unwatched.


Seems like a decent way to drown in shit more like...


Lel, you would be surprised. It's not all rivers of shit down there.


Depends on the city, and the sewage system, and if it starts raining...


Some cities have many tunnels made for piping, if one is careful enough they can explore them or even use them to travel distances.


Seems risky outside Arizona


I've thought about setting up a little company like that here in Australia. But mostly for the underground (literally) community. They tell me they need a secure message sent from A to B. I give them an estimate of time, and force them to encrypt their stuff beforehand, so I can never know what they need transporting. Then pass this along to B and give them the item. Maybe head back to A for the encryption keys or get messenger B to deliver it to person B. It'd be very niche, but at least there'd be some use.

Mirror's Edge Catalyst explored that issue quite well. They have cameras on rooftops and if you stand in front of them too long, KrugerSec (policia) will be on your ass with drones and combatants.


File: 1466437898912.png (542.83 KB, 200x131, TMNT.jpg)


My father was a civil engineer and he knew a thing or two about storm sewers. Me and my brothers and the local urchins from the 'hood played ninja turtle one day and explored a long culvert. No poop down there, just water maybe ankle deep. We had rain boots and flashlights. We told the old man years later and he said YOU WENT WHERE? He thought a flash flood could have wiped us all away. Also the structure was compromised, there were wooden crucifixes bracing the pipe.

It's worth looking into the tunnels around your neighbourhood though, if you're concerned with end of the world scenarios or civil defense or what have you. You might need that info someday. In some older cities, civil engineers don't even have maps of the sewers because they lost them in fires years ago and no one has any idea what goes on down there.


File: 1466443577763-0.png (2.22 MB, 200x200, 1434601055138.pdf)

File: 1466443577763-1.png (6.26 MB, 200x200, 1458145085008.pdf)

File: 1466443577763-2.png (6.86 MB, 200x200, [Marc_Animal_MacYoung]_Street_E__E_Evading,_Esca(BookZZ.org).pdf)


Why is Arizona immune?


couriers are quite common inner city, however they likely wouldn't know how important their package may be. Johnny Mnemonic is a runner too


Fellow Australian here, that sounds pretty hard to set up. I don't know how you'd find business like that. Even in the underground.


Damn, this shit's interesting. If only for research purpose rather than practical. Thanks anon.


Two words: Virginia Tech.



Vegas tunnels, those go on for hundreds of miles. There's like some lord of the fly shit going on down there.


Yeah, this is what I was thinking of. Drainage systems fill up FAST in even mild storms. You're really taking your life in your hands.

Well really it's not, but if you don't take the comment exactly literally, it implies you should be in a desert to do this.

Don't actually this in Arizona. It can flash flood there too.


Plenty of universities have inactive steam tunnels. These might be safer, I don't know how they relate to drainage. Make triple-sure they're inactive or you'll get cooked.


if they are inactive, equip a gas mask and cover all exposed skin. asbestos yo


Yeah, I mean Tucson has /some/ drainages. But... monsoon season is around the corner and all...


I apologize, I forgot it actually rains significantly in deserts. Should have said California maybe.


Well you're not wrong, just go in off season.


Modern drug dealing can be a lot like this in that mobility is generally crucial to success. I don't think it'll ever get to the point where you need to run around all the time though. It'd be cool though...

It would be sick if it were like "Johnny Mnemonic" or something though....


File: 1466497778072-0.png (1.71 MB, 200x200, sotn.pdf)

File: 1466497778072-1.png (3.26 MB, 200x200, Driving_Techniques_for_Evasion_and_Escape_-_3rd_Ed.pdf)

File: 1466497778072-2.png (10.29 MB, 200x200, Sneak_it_Through_-_Smuggling_Made_Easier_-_Michael.pdf)


>pretty hard to set up
It is incredibly hard to set up. You need to create relations, make contacts, create a client database that will actually want you. I know few people who would benefit from this service, and that's not enough to be making a living off.

> I don't know how you'd find business like that

I know people who know the right people. The ability to approach them at any time is up to me. I just have to be fucked doing it because, well, it's something that's going to take a good chunk of my life away. I need more clientele. I probs sound like a "im an underground 1337 hax0r" skid, but I'm actually not lying.

>Even in the underground

Let's review their options in both phones and computers.
-Apple (literal spying) or Android (literally spying because google owns it now)
-Windows or OSX
-Linux isn't an option for them because, like most normies, not all of them are willing to invest the time to learn something they'd rarely use.

Let's say criminal A wants to let Criminal B know the next time and place for a dead drop, but client A is a high profile person. They're not going to let person B approach them, they'd send an intermediary. My job will be to convince these people that instead of sending their lackeys, and waste valuable men and resources, they can send an encrypted, secure message, via a disposable runner. It's risky. I'm not liking my odds, but that's what setting up relations is all about.

tl;dr it's the most complicated easy thing to do


>Australian parkour
Ayy I took that course, fucking great stuff.


Utter bulllshit


Real life runners are not needed. It's a fun plot theme but IRL there are highly secure ways to transfer information over the internet. In the most extreme case OTP keys can by physically moved, but that won't be carried by an untrusted courier. It will be carried by a spy and passe by dead drop if it's espionage or in a heavily guarded suitcase if it's corporate.


What did they call them in Way Of The Gun? Bagmen. Mooks who were getting a bit too old to be muscle, but were very trusted and experienced.



That's asserting only digital goods.


>I don't know how they relate to drainage
Yeah true I deviated from my original idea hehe.
I think playing "too many" video games has given me a false impression of what sewers are really like.


buddy of mine is a food courier
wear functional/weather0appropriate clothing, and good chance the company will test your biking skills


Do they shove the super secret USB fobs in the burritos? Brilliant!


>derailed threads are not cool
moving from topic to topic is a natural part of conversation.


Yeah but internet forums are useful precisely for the ways in which they differ from natural conversation. We are talking about two different forms of communication here.


Messengers are a legitimate thing but I don't know about people who physically run to deliver intel or contraband. Firstly, running would have to be necessary. The only thing running would have over other methods of versatile transportation is that it's highly adaptable. If you need to duck out, you can jump a wall, hide somewhere, climb something, etc. If you're on a bike, you can still make snap turns go places cars can't, so it's easy to escape drivers following you in that sense, but you're still stuck with a bike and can only access the terrain a bike can access. Rollerblades could work since you can still jump and everything, but you'd probably stand out quite a bit since you don't see many people blading in public, also you're stuck with flat hard ground, no dirt or anything. Most messengers work by bike and usually just deliver food, legal documents, parts for stuff, things that can't be done digitally but need to be done quickly. Most just work with food nowadays, post-mates and stuff like that. Delivering stuff by car seems extremely trackable in the sense that you are very limited in where you can physically go, only working with paved roads; motorcycles might be better, but auto in general would definitely be fastest.

tl;dr: On foot could allow for hiding and being sneaky, though you could potentially stick out like a ninja weirdo. Bikes are most common for stuff like this except most just work with food. Cars and motorcycles are the fastest but you're the most restricted and can't hide.

It'd probably depend on the job. You have to level how important it is that the delivery goes unnoticed versus how fast you want something delivered, also considering how many people could be trying to follow you/track you down on a given mode of transport.

I'm not sure the type of running done in mirror's edge exists very much in the real world, but it's a fun concept.


Surprised nobody mentioned Cuba in the thread.
Look up "El Paquete Semanal" - translated, "The Weekly Package". Essentially, a network of pirates that spread totally mundane things like Netflix or the news via smuggled thumb drives full of and improvised/DIY networks. Piracy is so rampant, you can get any content you want easily, although it's hard to do much long-distance digital communication in such a manner.

As long as there's money to be made or ideas to repress, there's a vested interest in controlling and restricting the internet. At the same time, that same desire for money and need to express thought only create stronger markets for pirates and bigger incentives for underground networks.

Things are gonna get /cyb/, alright, with or without ubiquitous cameras. Side note, NYC is now allowing Google to install high-speed WiFi all through the city, for "free" - on the condition that all traffic goes through them and that they get to use all their collected data to track movement of connected devices and target advertisements at users in meatspace *and* in the Wired. Might be time to look into those meshnets, Lains...


Lainon, you would never implicate yourself by telling stories; you've never done anything illegal, after all!

Perhaps your waifu might want to tell some stories, pls?



I'm not that guy as a milfag dealing with enemy couriers...

We treated them like armed combatants and sent their electronics and whatever other material intelligence could be looted from their bodies back to the FOB for classification and analysis

Basically if you're a runner you are a link in an information network. And, in the same way it's standard procedure to just cut their internet lines and jam their signal towers when it suits the mission... All I'm saying is, these runners rarely know shit, by design; they're just kids who were given fifty bucks to carry a gun (or not) and some sensitive info or a bag of fresh cell phones, whatever, so they're as little value to us as to them, and it's better not to have them running around.


that code was an obvious passphrase.



Then where there instances where they employed a particular technique or countermeasure that made them hard to spot? In the context of a maritime nation and in an urban environment, what lessons could you impart on those that might be pressed to form these ad-hoc networks?


File: 1470038694563.png (4.24 MB, 200x133, Protocol 5 - Xanadu.webm)

>Might be time to look into those meshnets, Lains...

Good idea Lain. Here's a somewhat relevant discussion on using software defined radios:



File: 1470039855060.png (15.75 KB, 200x150, evilhaxor.jpg)

>hovering the board
Sorry to nitpick, but it's called lurking

>real life running of illegal shit

usenet (especially alt groups)
https://g.sicp.me/books/ (gentoomen)
tracker2.postman.i2p (via freenet)

See also: steganography
/layer/ uses ddt

Hosting "illegal or sensitive content isn't new"
Welcome to the internet



I guess you missed the memo. We obviously know what digital "couriers" can be and what they employ. And again, maybe you skimmed without reading, this is about couriers IRL (afk, i.e. sneakernet).


Great game, chummeurs! I just tried it I installed it on my computer software and it is great! I only dislike commando because they are hard to disarm and it's unrealistic that I beat all of them unconscious


Moved to >>>/cult/243.