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lainchan archive - /feels/ - 9391



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No.9391

So I'm a 90s-born young white male who grew up with vidya, porn, and anime and who works in IT now, with parents whose politically leftist/liberal influence led me to soak up ideals of porn culture under the guise of "sexual liberation" for all my childhood and teenage years (although they themselves wouldn't support porn -- I always just thought "well they're too old and don't get it, this is the *new* liberal stuff").

Then some three years ago I met classical, second-wave feminism for the first time (also called radical feminism although that term scares people off and makes them assume wrong things), and it gave me the most logical, clear, and sensible explanation of the world around me, especially since I'm effeminate on the inside and a sensitive boy. (I'm 23 but calling myself a boy feels more appropriate, even though I have a beard. Boku wa...) It includes / is sisters with critiques of capitalism, imperialism, colonialism, racism, and so on (see for instance Deep Green Resistance, where all these are combined) and all of this is basically like my "religion" at this point, although rooted in materialism not spirituality.

From about 17 to 22 I would visit 4chan's anime community and feel somewhat at home there. Ultimately I quit because of the raging sexism.

Similarly, for the past 5 years or so I would also spend almost every day in an IRC channel that I grew extremely fond of and where I felt like home (much more so than on 4chan), which in fact also nudged me towards sensible feminism in the first place more or less... But it seems I've gotten too radical. Being a techie IRC channel, it contains almost only men, and probably more MtF transsexuals than women. Criticizing porn and prostitution was difficult enough, and the other day I was once again treated massively derisively by some of the bigger names in the channel for opposing the transgender movement's attack on women's liberation. I'm not exactly bad at expressing myself I believe, but the clash of genderism and women's liberation is a topic that includes a particularly powerful mixture of mind-fuarrrkery, and it seemed like nobody actually got my perspective in the first place, yet they felt it right to dismiss me as crazy and be all holier than thou. So ultimately I quit the one place I would call home also.

Now I feel a vacuum. Literally no place to go and chill with people. Not even a fuarrrking IRC channel, or a retarded anonymous imageboard, which were the best things I had. Venting at Lainchan came to mind, because this is the least bad chan I've ever known. I'm not a regular, and I doubt that there's anyone here with a similar life experience to mine, but I needed SOME place to vent, so here it goes.

I think that's all. I'm too chicken to actually seek up an ultra-radical group like Deep Green Resistance or an underground criminal version of it, I'm male so I can only be a sideline ally to women's liberation communities and not a member, my interactions with people in real life such as with family or coworkers is totally stunted because of my eccentric inner world, and other than hoping to maybe find a new home on the Web, I'm now just seeking out a girlfriend to perhaps be the one person I feel at home with. Never had a partner before, been longing for a while, maybe it'll change my life.

Also, a young cat I loved deeply died recently and I think that's still silently killing me on the inside. Just as an aside.

That's all. I just spilled my guts out and killed some time. Who knows what'll happen next.

  No.9392

is the notion of expressing yourself online very important to you? i don't really grasp it as i'm a lifelong lurker and communicate primarily with offline acquaintances. virtual and physical sense of belonging are quite different and as you sensed correctly seeking peace in radical groups is not the endgame. i suppose relationships not focused on politics and social discourse are something that would benefit you lainon, do you have a comrade?

  No.9394

Are you >>9393 ?
Either way I was going to comment on this with "why are you so serious about political beliefs?" I mean we all have [mis]conceptions on the world and whatnot, but do you feel you need to discuss this stuff all over the internet to "call it home"?
I mean, we are all different, and you are guaranteed to feel different than I do towards political ""beliefs"", but in reality the whole matter is divisive as it can be on account of pretty much thin air. Even worse is getting passionate about it.
I don't want to derail into politics right now, but really treating it as your "religion" and making it not only your identity but being really open with socially sensible matters... not good ideas.

  No.9395

>>9394
I agree with this anon. Having developed political beliefs is important, but completely centering your life around politics isn't the best idea - even presidents and senators have other interests. Hanging out with super-political people is never fun. I recommend finding a new hobby that reminds you politics isn't everything. If you like cats, why not spend more time learning about animals?

Also, take the internet less seriously. It's supposed to be edgy, you should focus on changes you can make in the real world. Cultural shifts don't happen overnight, it takes a lot of hard work.

  No.9396

>>9392
Yeah, since I'm permanently blueballed IRL about my political and such thoughts, I desire some sort of community where I can feel "intellectually" at home...

>>9394
Yes I'm that person. No I don't know why I'm predisposed to care so deeply about politics. I just can't not care about all the things in the world that are wrong and bad... And I want to be around people who are more or less on the same page as me, otherwise it's just constant alienation and feeling like I must be insane...

Thanks for the responses.

  No.9397

>>9396
>I just can't not care about all the things in the world that are wrong and bad...
Then how come you still support transphobic trash like the Deep Green Resistance?

  No.9398

Why not seek out a cause you truly feel like supporting? Or better yet, organize something in your local, give away free food, run a free store, meet and coordinate with local green or lgbt activists. Even the process of meeting other like minded people at organic or vegan restaurants will give you the social interaction that you seek while still giving you some political outlet. I find it hard to relate to my peers because of their ignorance to a lot of social issues. Don't worry about being political, it's important in the world today to not be ignorant.

  No.9399

>>9391
How funny... you sound exactly like how I used to be. In fact, it's something that I still struggle with, though maybe not exactly in the same way you do.

It sounds like you're just far too obsessed with politics. I think a lot of people, especially with the last election, have been caught up in that trap. The irony is that by becoming obsessed with the human rights of others, we've ended up making excuses for making ourselves miserable. Now I'm not saying to stop caring about those causes you're passionate about, because I'm pretty sure that's impossible. Just understand that everything is not black and white and a lot of groups paint things like that just to rally others.

It's not even some sort of grand conspiracy by the other side. Everyone does this and it's not even for an ulterior motive, it's just much easier to get a lot more support that way. It's how humans work, I guess.

Getting a girlfriend won't help things, it may end up making things worse. There are a lot of predatory people out there, especially in the political realm which is all about taking power over others. Trying to cite things like percentages of things like "what sex is more deceptive" or whatever bullsoykaf is pointless for someone in your situation. All you need to know is that predators exist of every creed, and they WILL take advantage of you and hurt you using the very things you're passionate about.

Your chickenness to join an ultra-radical group, I would wager, isn't so much cowardice but more reservation. That's normal. I don't know a thing about this Deep Green Resistance or whether or not it's transphobic like that other lainanon said, but think about it. Joining anything extreme like that, especially if it's criminal, it's gonna mean a huge change in lifestyle. It's gonna mean you gotta be more even more paranoid of people who aren't in the "in-group" of sorts. What happens when this groups ends up treating you like soykaf? You could go to the proper authorities, but you also risk being jailed as well. Do you think jailtime is worth joining a cause over? It's fine if you don't want to, a lot of people probably think like that as well.

The reason I'm saying all this is because it sounds like you're just lonely, and perhaps there's a better alternative to cure your loneliness. Surely you have some sort of interest that isn't overly political? Maybe there's a library near you that has some events going on that you can go to. It's not something that has to replace your passion for politics, just something that can help you get your mind off of it from time to time. I'm hardly an educated expert, I'm a college drop out turned NEET after all.

tl;dr - politics is important, but it's not the only thing important about life.

  No.9400

>>9391
>I'm male so I can only be a sideline ally to women's liberation communities and not a member
To you are just useful idiot for them. Calling yourself male feminist makes as much sense as a Jew calling himself nazi. Most of them despise you just because you have a penis, just like nazis hated Jews just because they were Jews. And also both of them could make money of it.

Do you know how most of the people define chill? Definitely not by being toxic on IRC channel calling every other thing somebody talked about sin, haram, sexist, whatever you prefer. This is just looking for a fight and most people come talk to IRC channels to chill, not fight with your nearsighted political views.

My point is, why the hell are you being openly political? What do you gain by it, other than enemies? If you love political ideas, challenge your own. I assume you don't do it, since you side with anything "ultra" or "radical". If you have been ever critical, you would have seen that any political idea or action leads to one thing - gain. The better ones like charity lead to your gain of feeling better about yourself. The ones you push for lead much more for a financial gain, sometimes "justified" vandalism. If you are looking for somebody just saying how right you are then good luck. Patting each other on the back saying how only your political idea is right and everybody else is wrong without even thinking about it is very sad depiction of somebodies future.

You sure are right about calling yourself a boy, but child would be even better.

  No.9401

>>9396
So it's hard or impossible for you to not care about politics. Fair enough. You can't stand the world being so wrong, that's a good sign.
But are you aware that tagging yourself into "ideologies" is not only separatist but also rigid-minded? Aren't you aware that all such opinions were instilled in us and that it's mostly composed on /beliefs/ rather than on a proper evaluation of things?

I also remember I used to have some ideas of what would be in the best interest of the people to do, which pretty much made sense, yet I lived with people who would completely disregard that and further argue with desperate arguments just to justify being too lazy to change their ways at all. So I kind of get where you're coming from.
My only advice is be the change you want to be in this world, and don't try to save those who don't want to be saved, if anything, they might learn by example; inspire them.

Oh your problem is one of belonging... I can't help you there.

  No.9403

>>9400
While I wouldn't have worded it nearly as harshly is this person did, critically analyzing what you believe is important. I'm not just saying begin going full MIGTOWN or anything like that.

For example, although I still believe in the equality of the sexes like I did when I was younger, I can no longer label myself a feminist for a number of reasons. Nor can I call myself a MRA either, even though I am sympathetic to their causes. Mostly because it feels like the entire political labeling was never about advancing the rights of others, but rather just an evolved form of cliques we had back in high school. There's a high chance that I am extremely misinformed about this, and perhaps this is a topic that isn't exactly fitting for /feels/.

What I want to get across is this: I had a lot of reservations about the labels I was using on myself, but I kept denying to them that they were there for the sake of the cause. But there came a point where I couldn't deny these doubts I had, mostly after crossing a line I thought I'd never cross, and it was that point I had to truly confront them lest I end up destroying myself.

Labels are useful, but they're not the end all of everything.

  No.9406

I really think I understand where you are coming from here, I believe I went through something similar in the past and I think I can possibly impart some advice.

The primary difference between you and me was that I was searching for a community that shared my beliefs on more a more technical level. I wanted a place to communicate with others about my strong opinions on the proper ways to program things and the kind of software people ought to be using. I understand that this is vastly different than your beliefs OP, I understand that your beliefs cover a much more serious topic. But I'm begging you to bear with me for a moment and hear me out.

Seeking out like minded individuals is exactly the opposite of what you want to be doing. When you insert yourself into a group of people that all believe in the same thing, it only causes things to escalate, it gets so loud that questioning anything is impossible because no one can hear themselves anymore. You won't get that feeling of belonging that you are searching for, because even once you find somewhere that "kinda" works for you, it will only serve to intensify your views so much that your new "home" will once again be out grown. You will never feel like your views are getting this way either, it will just be obvious to you that things ought to be this way and that everyone who believes otherwise has simply just not yet seen the light. But you need to accept that things are much more complicated than this and that most people really think they are doing the right thing.

If you really want a place to belong, try being a bit more nomadic, go to places that you would never even consider going to before. From what you have told me, I think a great place to start would be -pol-. Now what you want to do is understand what exactly it is that they believe and why they believe it. Now trust me, I understand -pol- can be quite the cesspool but that's not the point. What you want to do is get a different perspective on things, understand the fallacies that people commonly fall into and then use this to refine your own beliefs.

My main point (sorry for beating around the bush) is that I think you need to start questioning everything you believe and always assume you might have it wrong. Not only will this make it easier to debate with those that you disagree with, it will also give you a lot of much needed nuance. You need to stop soaking in the beliefs of others and forge a path of your own. Once you accept a difference of opinion as a virtue instead of a vice, life gets a lot more enjoyable.

  No.9407

>>9391
>I doubt that there's anyone here with a similar life experience to mine

there's some close minded prejudice for you

  No.9408

just had to say, theres some really good advice in this thread.

  No.9409

>>9391
>I'm male so I can only be a sideline ally to women's liberation communities and not a member

Time to find a new community, you're a man involved in a community meant exclusively for biological females. The soykaftiest I ever felt in my life was when I pretended I gave a soykaf about gender. fuarrrk the trannies why do you really care? Do they care about you? Become more self interested like the women you're white knighting for. And you won't feel so fuarrrking lost, I guarantee it.

>>9400
Yeah I'm pretty well restating what this guy said

>>9395
Sound like OP might like volunteering at a shelter or a vets office. They usually need help.

  No.9410

Dude, >>9391 you have got to chill out. Feminism is fuarrrking great, sexual liberation is fuarrrking great, and helping any group of oppressed people is fuarrrking great. And it all needs to be done.

But don't ever fuarrrking let someone take your own identity away from yourself.

While you're graffitiing over capitalist propaganda listen to Swans. Old school Swans, when Gira was starting to have the red mist slide over his eyesight. dress in a way that makes you feel powerful. Be fuarrrking proud to be a man, be fuarrrking engaged in masculinity.

It's no use to the rest of us trying to fight if we've got a bunch of people insecure in their identity. Doesn't matter if that identity is transgender, second wave feminist, oppressed racial minority, or a man. Whoever you are, we need you to look in a mirror every morning and say "fuarrrk yeah, let's do this. Let's kick some fascist ass." and really mean it.

  No.9411

>>9391
Haven't you made several threads about this very issue before?

There's at least one person I'm aware of in the past here sounding very similar to you.

  No.9412

>>9397
Because the transgender movement is an anti-women's liberation, colonialist, postmodern, neoliberal, industrialist movement, i.e. a bunch of things I stand against.

It's against women's liberation as apparent from the fact that it celebrates the end of women-only and lesbian-only spaces like Michfest, and opposes new such spaces like WoLF Fest.

It's colonialist in the sense that it supports the colonization of women-only spaces by the oppressor class, men.

It's postmodern in the sense that it contains absurd amounts of brainfuckery with regard to redefinition of simple words like "female" and "woman" based on the subjective feelings of some loons.

It's neoliberal in that it holds individuals above the collective, saying that all spaces have to be inclusive of and tolerant towards all people without regulation, ignoring the fact that this means that the existing power dynamics between certain groups of people will lead to a significant part of the people in that space to be in fact de facto excluded or at least abused in various ways by another part of the people in that space.

It's industrialist in that it depends on modern industry to meet the desired supply of hormone blockers, cross-sex hormones, and various cosmetic surgeries.

>>9400
Masculinism literally made me almost kill myself. I would have to be an utter idiot not to support gender abolitionism. I'm somewhere on the extreme lower end of the spectrum with regard to how much I gain from the power the system gives men as a class, and somewhere on the extreme upper end with regard to how much collateral damage I've suffered, so of course I'd like to see that system and and the power redistributed. Additionally, I would also rather kill myself than nonchalantly usurp unjust power given to me over other people.

I understand that this ideology threatens you because you're one of the men who choose to usurp that power. There's no point in calling each other childish (I could just say selfishness like yours is childishness), as we'd just be insulting each other for having different ideologies.

>>9401
I agree with radical feminism entirely on my own account. In fact, I do so in spite of peer pressure to reject it, not because of peer pressure to accept it...

>>9406
Heh, are you from the cat-v region? Those tend to be extremely evangelical AFAIK. Anyhow...
I don't think there's anything I could learn from a place like pol. I know that their ideology is rooted in seeing themselves as more important and deserving of resources than others, so there's simply a deep, fundamental disagreement there. If I reached my ideologies based on desires of equitable treatment of all, they reached theirs based on self-interest. My own brother is a bit of a poltard fond of Trump and Putin, and I pretty much see exactly that in him... He once told me, tongue-in-cheek but also meaning it, "why aren't you just enjoying your white male privilege instead of fighting against it?"

>>9407
Eh? It was just meant as a simple observation that young white men who grew up on vidya, porn, and anime are extremely unlikely to end up agreeing with classical feminism like I did. You could call it a false educated guess, but I wouldn't call it prejudice... My guess seems to have been correct so far, although people had analogous experiences.

>>9411
I've last been here for a few weeks or so I think, some months ago, maybe half a year? Not sure. I talked about political topics then too, yes. I haven't ever made a thread about loneliness resulting from this though.

>>9408
Yeah, I don't agree with all of it but people are actually putting a lot of thought into their responses, which is why Lainchan is at least great as an intellectually stimulating community.

  No.9416

>>9412
>Masculinism literally made me almost kill myself. I would have to be an utter idiot not to support gender abolitionism. I'm somewhere on the extreme lower end of the spectrum with regard to how much I gain from the power the system gives men as a class, and somewhere on the extreme upper end with regard to how much collateral damage I've suffered, so of course I'd like to see that system and and the power redistributed. Additionally, I would also rather kill myself than nonchalantly usurp unjust power given to me over other people.

You just project your own own inability to do something about your life to some world-wide conspiracy against you, while you contradict yourself. You are pushing for ideology that wants to abolish any form of government that you take part in, to the form of government, that this group of people that "know better than you filthy cis scum". You are pushing from democracy back to authoritarian system. You are not pushing for any form of abolitionism. You are pushing for a supremacy of one group.

If you don't gain from being a man, how exactly can you then tell that every men got their power by some entity you didn't even define? What even are these power you talk of? I suspect you blindly believe in some ideology and didn't even put one thought into it. Otherwise you wouldn't have sided with a group of people that call themselves oppressed while having a free pass to universities, lowered jail sentences and much more... And it's also the same group that pats other authoritarian governments where woman has the same value as a camel as their allies.

And no, no ideology threatens me. What threatens me that there are people that go for one ideology and go "this one is true and other ones are bullsoykaf". I'm no follower of any ideology. I hope everybody gets their fair chance to live decent life. Woman in third world to get the same rights as men, men in some countries to have a possibility to go on a "maternity" leave just like women, for men to have again the same opportunity getting to the university (which doesn't apply anymore thanks to the likes like you), for poor to have opportunity to live a better life and for the rich to be not only rich on the outside, but on the inside.

But our life views are absolutely not compatible. I'm hoping that life will get better for everybody and nobody will suffer, while you hope that hitting somebody with a stick long enough will grant you their place.

  No.9418

>>9412
>Heh, are you from the cat-v region? Those tend to be extremely evangelical AFAIK. Anyhow...
Guess I sounded a bit preachy. You missed the point though so to be a bit more blunt you sound exactly like a poltard but just believe in the opposite of what they do. Pretty much everyone who pushes their values to the extreme (like you) starts acting the same way and they never fuarrrking realize it because their head it so far up their asshole that they will actually refuse to consume any piece of media or discussion that doesn't match their worldview.

So much so in fact, that they end up stuck in the miserable, unhappy and lonely situation that you are in now where you literally cannot go anywhere to belong because you have isolated yourself from all avenue of discussion. If you were on my IRC channel and started bitching about this kind of soykaf, I would be glad to have you gone because dealing with people like you is insufferable. Its not even what you believe that is causing this, its the your total lack of perspective and arrogance that causes it. I know plenty of people who believe exactly what you (seem) to be saying and they have none of the problems you are describing and that is because unlike you, they are open-minded. You have so much in common with -pol- that is actually hilarious to me that you haven't even noticed.

  No.9419

>>9412
>If I reached my ideologies based on desires of equitable treatment of all, they reached theirs based on self-interest.

Y'know, there's a very distinct and clear difference between self-interest and selfishness. The former is just being concerned about one's well-being, the latter is being obsessed with oneself. I'm going to assume that, because you are male, you feel like your own life is disposable? Because the ideology you believe in has told you that you have it easier?

It's funny you also mention your brother saying "enjoying your privilege." Regardless of whether or not you're using it ironically, it's a rather sinister phrase. What does it mean to really enjoy your privilege? It is quite clear that you don't seem to be enjoying much of anything. No one really enjoys not being able to fit in anywhere, and anybody who is telling you otherwise are either lying or delusional. For me, I believed in it so bad that I came to believe that the only way to truly help out in the world was to basically torture myself, because what right did I have as a privileged individual to enjoy unearned benefits? Of course, I was never helping out anybody. I was just doing nothing but destroying myself and being a burden to my own family. I wasn't helping out anybody, I had just given myself the perfect, "virtuous" excuse to nearly kill myself.

On the flipside, for the poltards and their ilk this gives them the perfect excuse to grow more selfish without concern of their self-interest. This is why they supported a candidate that where it was blatantly obvious were going to throw them under the bus a few weeks later just to get some appeal from the general public, all because he was going to fulfill their juvenile wish of pissing off the people whose political beliefs were opposite of theirs.

What I'm trying to say is this: a rich person and a poor person all have the right to be happy, and a rich person making themselves unhappy isn't going to do anything to help the poor person.

  No.9421

ITT
>I subscribe to this ideology to the point where it is "basically like my "religion""
>This ideology that tells me I am privileged and 'the oppressor' because of the way I was born that I cannot change
>I feel like I don't fit in
well no soykaf sherlock, you're like a black person trying to join the fuarrrking KKK of course you're gonna feel you don't fit in.

  No.9424

>>9400
Dude eat soykaf. Feminists are not a threat to your fragile ego.

  No.9427

>>9391
Can you find an Alternate culture center in your area?
Or at least something like a squat that is popular with actual punk rockers?

Maybe you need to move, or travel the world, i.e. go international. Maybe since you are now a bit deconstructed, you need some reconstruction.

  No.9431

>>9412
>It's postmodern in the sense that it contains absurd amounts of brainfuckery with regard to redefinition of simple words like "female" and "woman" based on the subjective feelings of some loons.

that's not postmodernism

>It's neoliberal in that it holds individuals above the collective, saying that all spaces have to be inclusive of and tolerant towards all people without regulation, ignoring the fact that this means that the existing power dynamics between certain groups of people will lead to a significant part of the people in that space to be in fact de facto excluded or at least abused in various ways by another part of the people in that space.


That's not neoliberal either... it also doesn't make any sense. Reread that last sentence, the "de facto excluded" part but think about it in regards to women, or homosexuals, or people of color. The argument still stands... in fact it reads like a lot of arguments used to exclude gays from military service.

>It's industrialist in that it depends on modern industry to meet the desired supply of hormone blockers, cross-sex hormones, and various cosmetic surgeries.


lol wat? Even under the assumption that something relying on the products of an industrial civilization is industrialist in nature (which is a big assumption) you're arguing that gender reassignment surgery is industrialist, not transgenderism itself...

This comment actually makes me think you're a troll... I just don't see it being possible that you've been hanging around feminists and didn't learn what these terms actually mean, or at least didn't take some incidental poli sci class in uni. Maybe you've hung out with TERFS you're entire life? but it more feels like you read through a /r/tumblrinaction poster's version of what they think feminism is.

  No.9433

>>9406
This guy is kind of right, an echo chamber only isolates you from reality.
Indeed, being in a site where people hate the programming environments in which I grew kind of allowed me to put things in perspective.

  No.9434

>>9424
Thanks for being constructive and explaining how I am wrong.

Your comment was very descriptive of how modern feminism works. No need for facts or discussion, just go and insult your opponent just because he is wrong because only I can be right by definition. More and more I start to have a hard time finding differences between modern feminism and 40s nazism.

  No.9435

>>9418
My bad OP when you said cat-v region I thought you meant Cable Television instead of cat-v the website. I assumed you were dismissing my post as soap-boxing and got frustrated. That being said I still believe some of what I said is still valid. People often don't realize that they are just reflections of the very people they hate most.

Also you are somewhat correct, I enjoy cat-v.

  No.9436

File: 1484508424053.png (109.31 KB, 200x200, pup.jpg)

>>9412
I hate to turn this into a political discussion since you're looking for an outlet, but I'll start out with that.
This is a blind guess but based off your statement that you were fuarrrked over by the male power structure (or were on the "low end" etc.) you're attempting to find outlets/boogeymen to blame for your inability to make use of pre-existing power structures within Western society. I'm coming from the perspective of a far-left anarchist, so please try and hear me out.

If you truly want to derive the issue of your problems, you're looking for an outlet to vent angst (in the most innocent definition) and an anger at western society. However, rather than attacking the transgender movement for being "industrialist and postmodern," which is a pretty silly and inaccurate use of the definition, look at the transgender movement within the realm that it's operating within. The vast majority of intersectionalist/"3rd wave" feminists are simply trying to gain safe and equal representation within the legal structure of the US; I'll assume you live within the US as well. Calling it industrialist for individuals who were born with a mental disability to desire treatment for the disability is closeminded, and in general this is what most members of the transgender movement seek out.
I'll use the literal definition of a mental disability which is accepted within the transgender movement as being a legitimate term for the condition of gender dysphoria.

Moving on, if you're trying to find a community for intellectually stimulating discussion, the primary thing you want to avoid is joining an echo chamber like you seem to be searching for. You seem to want re-affirmation of the political ideals that you've set yourself into, and a reinforcement for the ideology that you've claimed as your own. The issue is that, as multiple people within this thread have said, the last thing you want is continued affirmation of how correct you are. You shouldn't desire a stasis within your political ideals, you should look for the weaknesses within your own political ideology and seek out answers for those weaknesses, be it within your own community or from people who completely disagree with you.

The sad part is (and it took me a long ass time to realize this), there are actually some things that centrists, liberals, and even fashies/ancaps have gotten right, that the left can't come to understand because of the rigid ideological structure and the vitriolic response to people breaking from the left-wings' ideologue. Prime example would be issues such as gun rights (I'd rather avoid starting an argument on gun legislation though, just trying to give an example).

If you use social media, there are quite a few neutral communities that focus on providing a basis for discussion between opposing ideologies, without the vitriol of sites like pol. Outside of social media, the best thing I can recommend is just finding non-political spheres like your irc channel, and for political intuition just try reading a soykafload. Don't limit yourself to your own ideology though, try out authors and intellectuals from other stances.

The primary take-away from this thread that everyone else has mentioned, is just don't give as much of a soykaf about politics, it isn't the end of the world if someone disagrees with you.

  No.9437

>>9416
Dude sorry but you seem to be missing some fundamental info about the topic. Like if you paid a bit of attention you'd notice that the guys going around saying "cis scum" are the ones I'm opposing. (Which is why I'm cast out from mainstream liberal spaces.) And the theory of patriarchy (theory like in "the theory of evolution") is feminism 101 and I'd gently request you to first get some ground info on that topic before bashing the ideology.


(I'm splitting up my post into several pieces because the board thinks I'm a spammer and I can't figure out because of what. Sorry for the barrage of incoming posts.)

  No.9438

(second part)

>>9419
Nobody's life is disposable. Not sure why you thought I must be believing that.
What my brother meant was, I should stop caring about injustice and just feel all giddy and smug about having been given unjust power, like he does. Maybe I paraphrased him badly.

I see what you mean though. If I just make myself miserable then I won't be helping anyone either...

>>9421
More like a white person who hates white people for their indifference towards slavery but also cannot just go up to the Black Panthers and expect them to take me in and accept me as one of their own because duh.

>>9435
Hahahaha, OK. I wonder what exact circles you used to spend time in? The suckless community maybe? Common Lisp folk? Haskell? OpenBSD community?

  No.9441

File: 1484510588352.png (8.18 KB, 200x67, 2017-01-15-21-02-52+0100.png)

I can't seem to get the third part of my post through the spam filter so here's a screencap. Jesus, the board software must hate me. I tried everything: removed the links (replaced them with the titles of the websites), censored "offensive" words, censored mention of dumblr...

>>9418
(see pic)

  No.9442

>>9431
Honestly, feel free to give me a concrete definition of postmodernism and neoliberalism. I'm using the words like they most commonly seem to be used, but it's quite likely that I'm taking part in a trend of abusing fancy words. I could have easily constructed the post without using any of those words.

About the industrialism though: yes actually, even some people on this board explicitly note the ties between transgenderism and transhumanism. It's a certain obsession with body modification to the extreme and it relies on modern industry. But I may be mixing together different transgender subcommunities and talking like they're one thing.

TLDR I didn't create this thread to argue politically so I was very lazy with my post.

>Maybe you've hung out with TERFS you're entire life? but it more feels like you read through a /r/tumblrinaction poster's version of what they think feminism is.

Pfft, read some basic radfem.

  No.9443

File: 1484511523620-0.png (6.54 KB, 200x187, Sphere_Of_Influence.png)

File: 1484511523620-1.png (4.42 KB, 200x187, Change_Beliefs.png)

>>9439
Pretty much all of the above to be honest lol. But most of my beliefs are developed independently.

>>9438
Yeah had the exact problem with my first post, its apparently because poll triggers the spam filter, I probably should of said something about that.

Anyway p-o-l was just an example and I didn't really mean for you to go there for the memes I meant to go there as a leaping point to the reasons many of them got their beliefs. I think most people who sound as invested as you are seem to have done there research on it. There are plenty of other places you could go instead but what I'm really saying is start reading right wing extremist literature to balance things out.

Please understand that I'm not trying to "convert" you or anything, I personally consider myself to be a socialist libertarian. If what you say is really true then reading their stuff shouldn't change your beliefs anyway. But by learning more about the extreme end of the other side, your perspective on things will help curb your rage a bit. (I have attached a poorly drawn illustration of this for some reason that I can't explain but attaching anyway)

>To be a Negro in this country and to be relatively conscious is to be in a rage almost all the time.

The world is filled with injustices anon, but being allowing that to cause nothing but rage will never give you what you seek. If nothing else maybe look into some buddist reading material.

  No.9444

>>9443
I apologize for the typos here, I got stuck behind the spam filter again because I forgot to change one of my mentions of -pol- and didn't get a chance to fix things.

  No.9445

>>9416
This probably one of the most sane posts in the thread but prepared to be ignored and told you just don't understand why what they want for the entire world is always 100% correct.

  No.9446

Strange, I could swear I managed to send a post containing a mention of p-o-l before, without needing to obfuscate anything. Also it says stop advertising adult sites now, LOL.

  No.9447

>>9445
Maybe the post is sane in isolation or something but I (OP) mostly just dismissed it because it seemed to fundamentally misunderstand me. For starters, patriarchy is not a conspiracy (or theory thereof), but rather a social/cultural/political system such as white supremacism, or for instance, capitalism. Secondly, I don't advocate for anarchy; radical feminist goals can be approached under a variety of governmental structures. (Although something like what Deep Green Resistance stands for may be the ultimate result of taking pure radfem ideology to its full logical conclusion, most radfems don't go that far.) And doesn't the post contradict itself when it suggests I want to abolish government and then says I want authoritarianism? Not even sure what's meant there. And then, the post talks about "an entity [I] didn't even define" giving power to men. Well, um, read feminism 101 and tell me patriarchy isn't a thing. It's as obvious as capitalism being a thing and granting unjust power to people born to rich parents.

So really, while we may be just talking past each other with that lainon, for my purposes that isn't a sane post at all.

I also didn't ever claim that I knew 100% of everything about what's right or wrong. Like I'm pretty ignorant on most issues of injustice other than sex-based injustice. I don't know much about racism, about indigenous people, about LGBT, about Islamism, and a soykaf ton of other stuff, except for where there's an intersection with a feminist issue. I wish people didn't assume so many things about me that aren't true, although I know I sometimes make the same mistake.

  No.9448

>>9412
>Because the transgender movement is an anti-women's liberation, colonialist, postmodern, neoliberal, industrialist movement, i.e. a bunch of things I stand against.
>blah blah blah

We are fuarrrking human.
The world is pretty much soykaf right now, for a number of reasons, yet people still adhere to political ideologies and congregate in definite groups that attack each other instead of trying to make things better for the better interest of all.
The only things that this attitude is achieving is: 1. People hate each other on purely artificial grounds ("oh, you support Trump? wow, fuarrrk you!") and 2. You're doing exactly what those in power want, you adhere to a set of labels created by them and which only make sense in the system which they create to keep people busy playing an inane game, you're not changing the world, you're not making it better, you're just running in a mousewheel for the amusement of those who make the propaganda you happily consume.

I don't really care about people like you, there's no telling you anything for what I've seen, you'll just keep playing their game. But it kind of bothers me that you come and whine about being alone in the world while also making a clown of yourself by showing us exactly why you have no friends.

I think you would like a place like tumblr though, you might feel at home, that's, for all I know, where radical feministststs congregate to smash the patriarchy.
By the way, are you a white male? Perhaps you don't belong there, gee, it sure is like kicking dead whales down the beach to have such separatist ideologies that exclude people over fuarrrking spooks, right?

soykaf I'm kind of mad to see how people can delude themselves with such mirages.

  No.9449

>>9442
Uhm, I can give you definitions but you're not going to learn anything from my post you wouldn't from doing a cursory google search. That's one of the reasons I was so confused, you didn't use any of those terms in anything approximating the correct usage. I apologize if this isn't the case, but it really does sound like you just heard all of them out of context and never bothered to find out what they meant.

This is kind of the crux of my comment... you don't sound like an actual feminist, you sound like a reddit crank who's trying to pretend to be one. like the

>Pfft, read some basic radfem.


I HAVE read radfem works... that's why I called you a TERF... would you mind maybe listing some of the reading YOU'VE done?

What is your educational background even in? Did you read The Feminine Mystique once and use that as a guidebook for the rest of your life? The trans-exclusionary segments of your comments read like babby's first venture into /r/gendercritical, and you still manage to bring up trans-humanism into it??? That is definitely not a topic brought up by, well, ANY contemporary feminist scholars, but Betty Friedan's arguments against trans women and trans men sound very similar to what you're talking about now.

But I'll say this; if I'm totally off-base, if you aren't a troll at all, then I am really and truly sorry. It sounds like you grew up around a group of very hateful people that appropriated a small segment of a philosophical belief in order to make you feel really terrible about your identity and place in the world. And that is like kicking dead whales down the beach. A lot, and it's not what contemporary feminism is about at all. I can imagine that if that's the case, then you're feeling a ton of pain right now, and I very very earnestly would like to talk with you further about how lonely you're feeling. If you want to, hit me up at

sour@openmailbox.org

  No.9451

>>9447
It just appears as if any disagreement with what your cause(s) have planned for the world or what they see as fundamentally wrong in the world is down to only that the opposing party hasn't 'read enough' of your soykaf. Everything in life is a negotiation between two parties, including identity.

So I am going to reaffirm that you're arguing with a person I can find more sane than you.

Also I wanted to add that simply shedding your skin when people draw up solid criticisms of your posting, as is, as 'fundamentally misunderstanding' is poor form or that these things can only be 'sane in isolation'?

This post is me reaffirming that I have been more swayed by your opponent in this debate than I have of you, with what very little you've both exchanged so far, as a neutral party.

Although your criticisms of transexuality are very interesting and I enjoyed reading those.

  No.9452

>>9410
>While you're graffitiing over capitalist propaganda listen to Swans.

Never listen to headphones while doing graf. Keep you ears peeled and keep looking over both shoulders.

  No.9453

>>9448
>I think you would like a place like tumblr though
It's funny how people throw around phrases like that without even knowing what they're talking about. Tumblr is mainstream liberal left. The whole mainstream left is your home when you're tumblr. It's literally the home of the genderist snowflakes who think lesbianism is "problematic" because it excludes "women with penises".

>We are fuarrrking human.

Yes. MtF trans are male humans. FtM trans are female humans. The former aren't women, the latter aren't men. (In a certain literal sense, the former are men, the latter are women.) They're all human in any case, as both women and men are human.

I think you fundamentally misunderstand the issue that's bothering me. The transgender movement is attacking women/feminism instead of trying to coexist and cooperate. It's part of a larger issue, that's talked about here:
http://www.feministcurrent.com/2015/06/10/the-no-platforming-of-radical-feminists-a-talk-by-julie-bindel/

I don't have an issue with male people rejecting manhood and going around being feminine, or vice versa. It does become appropriation at some point though when you flat out imitate womanhood; this is talked about here:
https://inpermanentopposition.com/2017/01/12/dear-trans-women-final-part/

>>9449
postmodern = "words can actually mean whatever you want them to mean"
neoliberal = "society consists of individuals, never groups of individuals"
Those are the crux of the definitions I've seen frequently used by several feminists. My mind is a bit clearer right now so I'm pretty certain these are the definitions I've frequently seen, so if I misused them then it was part of a larger trend of misusing them in the above explained ways (i.e. using those definitions).

>what's your educational background

Reading most (6-7) of the books in the Dworkin section: http://radfem.org/dworkin
The book "The Sexual Liberals and the Attack on Feminism".
A few chapters of "Unpacking Queer Politics."
Listening to all talks about prostitution by Catharine MacKinnon that can be found on YouTube. Likewise for talks about pornography by Gail Dines. And a few talks by Lierre Keith.
A soykaf ton of articles published on Feminist Current, or on various different sites authored by Julie Bindel, Sarah Ditum, and some other contemporary radical feminists.
Oh and watching many episodes of Feminist Frequency lololol.

I've actually written some amateur articles on the topic of gender identity and such, which were liked by radfems I've shared them with. Some thanked me saying "whoa exactly what I'm looking for." One of them was translated to German by someone.

I'm actually embarrassed that I haven't read a lot of literature outside of Dworkin. I should read de Beauvoir, Germaine Greer, Alice Schwarzer, Mary Daly, and a lot more, but on the other hand I've obviously (going by my interactions in radfem circles) got a relatively fine grasp of all the basics, so one may also question whether there's that much merit in investing time in further literature, when I could be spreading propaganda on various websites instead.

>It sounds like you grew up around a group of very hateful people that appropriated a small segment of a philosophical belief in order to make you feel really terrible about your identity and place in the world.

Nah man, you don't understand the issue at all. I've quit all the white male dominated places I've quit on my own account, because I couldn't bear those places anymore. Nobody ever told me "whoa dude way to be a soykaflord you better stop posting on /a/".

>>9451
This was never meant to be a political debate. Maybe in a different setting I would have been more prepared and convinced you of "my side" instead. But I'm happy that at least the criticisms of transgenderism awakened some interest.

  No.9454

>>9447
>Well, um, read feminism 101 and tell me patriarchy isn't a thing.
Well, um, read Mein Kampf and tell me that Aryan race isn't the only pure one, destined to be the only one to survive.

You still don't get it. Your political belief isn't right because somebody wrote a book about it. Open your mind and read a book that states otherwise. Check sources on statistics they claim. Now go and check sources from books you were reading, compare them.

>For starters, patriarchy is not a conspiracy (or theory thereof), but rather a social/cultural/political system

And so is matriarchy or feudalism? And what?

>And doesn't the post contradict itself when it suggests I want to abolish government and then says I want authoritarianism?

You want to abolish the form of government where your vote has the same value as vote of a rich, homeless, disabled or woman.

>It's as obvious as capitalism being a thing and granting unjust power to people born to rich parents.

Yeah, I remember the great times of middle ages when only the royal family and close people to it could read, get educated and not die in a war. Are you really crying about it being unjust? You have literally the same opportunities to study and work as a rich person. You didn't have more opportunities than today, considering you live in the 1st world. Which you obviously do, since your biggest problem is that you have nobody that will pat you on your back how right you are. Sure, you can't have the newest iPhone every year, do you think that makes rich people happy? Rich people are usually more depressed than poor people, because buying something doesn't make them happy.

Troll or not, I suggest that nobody continues to give any suggestions. There is no helping this guy, plenty of stuff has been said and if OP just keeps saying that they are wrong because he feels like it, it's really a waste of time for everybody. This guy is looking for a pat on the back instead of help.

  No.9455

>>9454
Whoa man, I don't mean to spill the soykaf and all, but I really don't feel like debating with someone who's comparing feminism to Nazism either.

I'm just going to point out one obvious thing (an extreme example of how structural inequality works in e.g. the US today) and leave it at that:

>You have literally the same opportunities to study and work as a rich person.

A black girl born into poverty in a Detroit ghetto surrounded by pimps, prostitutes, drug dealers, and gangs does not have the same opportunities in life as the son of Donald Trump, even though both are born naked into US citizenship. This is what privilege means. The former is on the extreme lower end of it, the latter on the extreme higher end. That's all.

  No.9456

>>9453
so, apropos of nothing, you just started reading radfem literature? You say that there was no one around you to incite interest in gender issue topics, so why did you start reading all of a sudden?

And why was your first place to look radfem.org? If you are a troll you're getting a little better at naming things, Dworkin is notorious for inciting TERFdom for sure, but you're still mostly just reading off a list from radfem.org or similar places. If you're for real about all this and that's all you've read... okay yeah I guess I could see you being as hateful towards men and transgender people as you are.

But why?? Why that website and that list? I'm not seeing the path you took at ALL. This again is why I keep bringing up the possibility of you being a troll and trying to stir hit up, you come across as a feminist straw-man.

How did you make it this far in your reading and not encounter any widespread contemporary third-wave authors? Why was everything you read grabbed from a list of anti-porn advocates?

And how did you make it through all of that without learning how to use postmodern and neoliberal correctly, to now this comment where you appear to have finally googled them and come up with inaccurate nut-case versions of their definitions? And Why did you think it relevant to bring up trans humanism???

  No.9457

>>9455
>Whoa man, I don't mean to spill the soykaf and all, but I really don't feel like debating with someone who's comparing feminism to Nazism either.
I was just comparing it to well know ideological book. My point was that saying some book says that means absolutely nothing. It's a theory at best, ideological bullsoykaf at worst.

>A black girl born into poverty in a Detroit ghetto surrounded by pimps, prostitutes, drug dealers, and gangs does not have the same opportunities in life as the son of Donald Trump

They can attend the same public school. The fact that her surroundings influence her to become the same thing says something about her. All black people a few generations back lived in the same ghettos. Many of them became successful and respected because they tried, they also didn't need any outside help. Hell, people in Europe after WWI picked their stuff and emigrated to the US. They were in the same situation as black people in the US are now. As for the Europe, gypsies are the same thing. Most countries literally positively discriminate them, pay for all school stuff gypsy kids need, but they still won't even attend school, because their parents tell them they shouldn't. When they try to get kids away from them, all human rights organizations get furious. How are we going to change things when they don't even want to?

This topic is not about this though (although it makes more sense discussing something else instead of "helping" OP). I understand your comment, though I can't promise I will not keep doing it.

  No.9458

>>9457
Dude this is a real lack of a basic understanding of how things work.

And really really racist.

  No.9459

>>9458
Can you stop with demented replies saying "you are this, you are wrong" and not say anything to the point? Do you think that if you scream that I am wrong will change my opinion? Not that I stated much, I just told you facts, excluding maybe one opinion.

  No.9462

>>9456
Its because he thinks that by specifically seeking out authors and reading material that agrees with him, its somehow not the same as being in a echo chamber. The crux of his issue is loneliness, which is always at the end of the road for people like him. Its like the more radical people get the more and more closed minded they become.

I doubt hes a troll though.

  No.9463

>>9455
> I really don't feel like debating with someone who's comparing feminism to Nazism either

I actually think he was making a good point, the more comments I read from you the more I think you should actually read Mein Kampf, they just released a nice annotated version which I think could help you stomach it.

It will teach you a lot about radical individuals and what happens if you tunnel vision onto things statistics and research that supports your cause but ignores everything else. OP its really hard to take someone seriously when they have only heard one side of an argument and that's why these kinds of things keep coming up.

  No.9464

>>9459
You aren't explaining any of your points either...

saying "people totally have the same opportunities" and then using that to prove certain races are just bad at life is

1.) no how logic works, you defined your own premise then wildly speculating off of that and

2.) super duper off topic from this thread... why are you even bringing race into it?

  No.9465

I think OP should realize that only ever accepting one side of an argument to the point where you can't stand people who have different opinions is probably a bad idea.
For example, I'm an anarchist, I used to be big into antifa and hunting nazis online, going to counter demonstrations against fascist groups etc.
Then I made friends with someone on an IRC channel who I found out was a fascist months later and guess what, turns out he was just a person! I know! Shock and horror! How do we solve our massive political differences? Well sometimes we debate and talk to each other, suggest literature and the like, but mostly we just talk about other stuff, like what anime we've watched or songs we like and it turns out not sharing every opinion with someone else in one area is not really a big deal, especially over the internet.

  No.9466

File: 1484529319992.png (81.28 KB, 200x127, forty faggots feeling feels forcing forlorn flashes from form.jpg)


  No.9468

>>9447

A new sad strange exhibit on lainchan, the male radical feminist who cares more about radical feminism than other radical feminists other regular feminists and indeed 99% of regular women as well. You're a strange one lain, I don't want to sound dismissive, but just pray that you grow out of it.

  No.9475

>>9441
>MacKinnon
Sorry to get slightly off-topic, but oh god, barf. If there's any praise I have for third-wave and intersectional feminism, it's distancing themselves from the ideals of Dworkin and MacKinnon.

While I agree that any kind of unregulated sex work is abusive, sex in all forms is inherently transactional. The idea that heterosexual intercourse is violence because of its transactional nature ignores both vast swaths of non-hetero sexual activity and basic economics. I can't read anything from either Dworkin or MacKinnon without feeling my blood pressure rise.

  No.9476

>>9475
Exactly what I've been trying to tell OP, and why I find it hard to believe he's ever even met a feminist. He seems to be getting his ideas about feminism from anti-feminist sources

  No.9477

>>9476
How can know that feminism was based on "the idea that "heterosexual intercourse is violence" but then espouse non-sense like "getting opinions from anti-feminist sources."
Why would you support something with roots in something so anti-human?

  No.9478

>>9477
I don't understand this post, are you confused about the post you replied to or OP?

  No.9479

I think it's fascinating watching you all cannibalize each other, just as someone who likes to watch and read of anything from anywhere.

  No.9480

>>9479
"Hey OP, that sounds rough would you mind elaborating? I feel like I have similar political convictions to you and I don't experience this personal discomfort, maybe I can help?"

"LOL I LOVE WATCHING PEOPLE CANNIBALIZE EACH OTHER"

  No.9481

>>9480
That isn't what was said and it isn't what happened either.

  No.9482

>>9478
What's not the understand? In the same breath he acknowledges and condems a legitimate feminist source and ideology he attacks someone for "getting his ideas about feminism from anti-feminist sources"
Here's the real trip: The idea that heterosexual intercourse is violence is not only fuarrrking insane, it's a legitimate feminist source!
So, there's two really great arguments against feminism here: 1) feminism isn't fuarrrking insane, "modern" feminism is based on something fuarrrking insane. There's also a third argument, too, that practitioners of feminism can't into logical arguments.

  No.9483

>>9482
theres a buncha typos here but im sure you eggheads can figure it out

  No.9484

>>9482
I think the interesting part for me, checking this out, is seeing these different sorts of feminists/anarchists coffee shop activist types debunking each other in the same manner that political groups they oppose debunk them.

How can you seem so sure of yourselves when there seems to be so much work to do on what you actually agree with.

I even did some reading on the TERF/anti-TERF divide and there's even this mini debate in the ideology and whether to call it exclusionary or 'EXTERMINATIONAL' - and rightly so this, this kind of dramatic manipulation of language is being called out as over the top by your own forces but then this kind of strategy is turned onto external political enemies with unity.

I suppose I'm saying it's just interesting to see the guns of the ideology turned inwards, with so much awareness of your own weapons flaws and how 'crazy' you can suddenly see opposing elements of yourself but when you turn them outwards you lose the awareness or it's fine to be crazy, or something.

I'm not looking for a debate though, it's just very interesting to read so far as an outsider.

  No.9485

>>9482
No I got that, I was just confused with the wording of your comment about who it was addressing.

>>9481
Okay.

  No.9486

>>9484
Why so dramatic? "Guns of ideology"? Are you surprised people debate ideas? What sort of a philosophy can't allow its adherents to discuss it and debate?

Are you arguing that people should what, never hold strong opinions because it lets people like you call them crazy?

  No.9487

>>9486
Simmer down, I'm not calling them crazy, hence 'crazy' - one of the infighters above called this 'TERF' group crazy, or the ideas alongside it something along the lines of crazy.

I'm not arguing for anything, like I said. I was giving an opinion, hothead.

  No.9488

>>9484
i'm glad you find my drunk ranting against feminism and its adherents interesting, Tequila

  No.9490

>>9488
Kentucky Bourbon over here on the pro-feminism/anti-whatever-OP-is-talking-about side

  No.9491

I was raised to be communist, feminist, vegan and bisexual, and if there's one thing that upbringing taught me, apart from that you can't beat someone into being a pacifist, it's that the "green-pink-left" as a whole, isn't.

The feminists attacked the trannies literally the morning after the Stonewall riots, the dykes shouted down the feminists with "Where were you bitches last night when these glitterboys were bleeding for us?", the greens are telling the feminists they should be using cloth diapers, the feminists are telling the greens WE DON'T WASH DIAPERS CUNT, and the greens have never forgiven the Aboriginals for selling the uranium rights to their own land once they got it back.

I'm not surprised that feminism is experiencing infighting, this Fourth Wave combines the worst hyperbole of Third Wave's unfortunate habit of comparing everything to rape with the goldfish attention-span of the millennial, but I don't think they understand what post-modernism is and that you can't rape someone over Twitter.

My feminism was more concerned with, you know, not being raped, and being allowed to work, and having adequate legal representation, and having a vote. These kids just I am angry on anyone who doesn't know the 52 pronouns they made up just now while they were talking to you.

And if you want to call yourself a "suffragette" or a "warrior", then go fight for women's rights in Malaysia or Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or Iran. Somewhere you can still get a bullet in the head for wanting to learn to read. Or India, where there's so many women with fissures between their anus and vaginas from being raped as toddlers that they represent a demographic. fuarrrk fourth wave, first world feminism.

Now, I was going to post this in the other tranny thread but it's reached its limit, so indulge me while I digress.

>I do urge anyone with gender dismorphia, anorexia, or any kind of self-image or identity issues to read Maxwell Maltz' "Psychocybernetics".


>He was a plastic surgeon who ended up working in psychology when he realised that his work was helping some people and not others, and the real issues were with their image of themselves and not necessarily the reality.


>So I recommend it, not as a "cure" for anything, but as a technique that may help you cope with having what you feel is the wrong body, reassignment surgery or no.

  No.9492

>>9491
You also don't sound like you've had that much experience...

I hang in very feminist bordering on radical circles and I've never even heard of someone getting mad that you didn't use the right odd pronoun you were supposed to already know. Everyone i've ever met either wants a specific gender pronoun, or "they". What pronouns have you encountered?

I agree that there are those within and without the movement focusing on mundane bullsoykaf but so? That doesn't mean anything, and it's irrelevant.

Try to explain to people like that their own unconscious bias and explain that you're only seeking to be an ally, not a threat.

I've NEVER had someone get angry a that, save for a single person who turned out to have serious mental issues and got kicked off campus anyway.

  No.9514

>>9456
>so, apropos of nothing, you just started reading radfem literature? You say that there was no one around you to incite interest in gender issue topics, so why did you start reading all of a sudden?
GamerGate. It made me decide to look into the topic of feminism properly for once, which I had never done before.

Then... Oh yeah, now I remember: I was reading Slate Star Codex. And the author nonchalantly mentioned Andrea Dworkin as a typical must-read. Everything I knew about her was "isn't she that crazy manhater who everybody including other feminists hate??" so I decided to actually look into her. Hitting http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/OnlineLibrary.html was the "turning point." The man-hating crazy witch as everyone knows her impressed me so extremely with her writing that I went on to read 6-7 whole books by her, and it just gave me the clearest ever explanation of the world around me. Everything fell in place, as they say.

>How did you make it this far in your reading and not encounter any widespread contemporary third-wave authors?

You don't need to read the works of third-wave feminist authors to understand third-wave feminism. It's just an affirmation of mainstream liberal support of porn culture which any liberal-minded person is already swimming in.

>without learning how to use postmodern and neoliberal correctly

Those words barely appear in what I read. Radfem is a pretty materialist and pragmatic, activism-based ideology, it doesn't drown you in academic speech.
And as I said, I used them exactly the way I've seen others use them. Maybe you're just unfamiliar with that usage/interpretation:
https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/j2xcs/can_someone_explain_postmodernism_like_im_5_please/c28p36y/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDcTt0emXhE

>>9459
Just FYI that lainon isn't me. (I agree with them though.)

>>9462
You just make up a fantasy explanation of things because you can't fathom someone concluding rationally (even just for himself) that radical feminist theory is highly accurate.

  No.9516

>>9468
>cares more about radical feminism than other radical feminists
How do you conclude that?
>regular feminists
Radfem = classical feminism (simply called "feminism" during the second wave). The third wave was an underhanded backlash; the word feminist got popular so all celebrities and such began calling everything feminist to be hip and cool so what you call "regular feminists" are people who don't actually follow any meaningful or clearly defined politics but rather believe that if they don't literally want to undo women's suffrage then they're automatically a feminist.
>regular women
"If I could have convinced more slaves that they were slaves, I could have freed thousands more." -- Harriet Tubman

>>9475
>>9477
>>9482
If you think feminists like MacKinnon and Dworkin are saying "heterosexual intercourse is inherently bad", that just means you haven't understood them. I would link resources and try to explain but I'm afraid I don't have the energy for that right now. I can only recommend to read their works in full instead of looking at snippets taken out of context, in case you haven't already. Oh I know one resource off the top of my head:
http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/MoorcockInterview.html
>Dworkin: Pornographers have repeatedly published the 'all sex is rape' slander, and it's now been taken up by others like Time
>[...]
>Michael Moorcock: [...] Several reviewers accused you of saying that all intercourse was rape. I haven't found a hint of that anywhere in the book. Is that what you are saying?
>Andrea Dworkin: No, I wasn't saying that and I didn't say that, then or ever. [...]

Feel free to provide a quote by Dworkin or MacKinnon where they actually say "all heterosexual intercourse is inherently bad."

>>9484
>I even did some reading on the TERF/anti-TERF divide and there's even this mini debate in the ideology and whether to call it exclusionary or 'EXTERMINATIONAL' - and rightly so this, this kind of dramatic manipulation of language is being called out as over the top by your own forces but then this kind of strategy is turned onto external political enemies with unity.
Hahaha, yes, the "exterminationist" thing is really the peak of absurdity.
But honestly though, there was feminism, and then came "sex positive third-wave queer feminism" and began behaving in the way you describe, lambasting regular feminists for allegedly being "sex negative", "saying all sex is rape", "opposing women's *agency* to take part in 'sex work'", and so on. It was a backlash against the feminist movement, and nowadays it has successfully claimed the label "feminism" for itself, forcing original feminists to separate themselves into labels like "radical feminist".

>>9491
>The feminists attacked the trannies literally the morning after the Stonewall riots
Do you have a source for this?

  No.9517

>>9514
>>9516
I take a bit of pride in attempting to diversify my reading material in order to get a bigger perspective on these kinds of things. There is always a chance that my worldview is wrong and I always need to keep myself on my toes. I also just enjoy the process of understanding someones political views even if I don't always accept them.

Unfortunately it seems a lot of what you are listing is stuff that I have not really heard much about before, this has been kind of bothering me. You have already provided a lot of material in your above two posts, I was just wondering if you could link me to any more you might have? I'm not sure if you have anything bookmarked or "on the ready" but if you do I would like to look them over them.

  No.9519

>>9517
OK let's see.
Plain radfem literature: radfem.org
Canadian radfems: feministcurrent.com
Radfems whose public speeches one may want to listen to on YouTube: Catharine MacKinnon (prostitution expert), Gail Dines (porn expert), Lierre Keith
Deep ecology org that's also radfem: deepgreenresistance.org (Lierre Keith is co-founder)
Journalists to look for: Glosswitch, Sarah Ditum, Julie Bindel
People and orgs very specific to prostitution abolitionism: Rachel Moran, SPACE International, nordicmodelnow.org, Melissa Farley, prostitutionresearch.com
Full-throttle "TERF": GenderTrender, GenderIdentityWatch, allisonslaw.wordpress.com
My short amateur articles on gender stuff: medium.com/@TaylanUB

I'll post more if comes to mind.

  No.9520

>>9519
Thanks OP, I really appreciate it. Will looks through these later.

  No.9526

File: 1484616524428.png (824.1 KB, 200x150, SeaSaltMound.jpg)

Hey there OP.
I recommend that you cleanse that soykaf from your head. I'm not calling it soykaf because I have some predisposition towards it, but simply because it's highly abstract and very disconnected from the real world. You need to fall back on the ground and see things for what they are. People are sweaty meat bags that burn corpses of other living things in their belly so they can fire neurons and solve problems. You must feel the reality of concrete, wood, water, sand, sleepy, smoke, moment, loud, itchy, cold, rough, bright, late, stretch and not have a second though about it, not know what or why it is.
From your post, I get the feeling that you're playing England; you set sail and colonize the world. Your mind did that to the world as well, putting stuff in categories and making up laws that mostly get followed so they kinda seem real. There's no unclaimed territory left, and so there's no more adventure either. You know what people are like, what they talk about, and why it won't suit you about every IRC channel you don't even visit. You know how your attempts at this or that will fail. You even know what and how is making sure that happens and that you can't do anything about it.
The world however doesn't bend to your mind, only you do. Burn the map of your colonies and the codex of your laws, get lost in the world, experience how unpredictable is. Instead of making judgments, throw them at each other and question them. Argue for the side that isn't yours until you don't really know if you even have a side. There's mountains of stuff out there to do once you ignore the broken models in your head that say there isn't.

I hope you didn't want advice, because that would make this post entirely pointless, and so much more pretty.
Also, I wonder. Is the sun, the atmosphere, rock and water male or female? I mean, that's probably most of what we live in, I can't wrap my mind around how feminism would help you understand the world when it deals with this tiny tiny minority of creatures crawling on the surface of a metal ball covered in stone.

  No.9528

How come this hasn't been moved to /civ/? this thread is pretty much about radfem now

  No.9532

Excellent discourse though, like >>9528 said, this is pretty much a thinly veiled radfem thread.

I don't have much of a simple agree/disagree opinion on this. Women are definitely given special treatment by design but, I definitely agree with the anon that said it's a postmodern phenomenon. I also believe that a movement against social constructs is only half of what it says on the label. You cannot escape the cage of mental constructs because, constructive logic is what all human thought is based on. We mentally model living routines from the available actions and interactions. One model or heiarchy can only be destroyed by being replaced with another one.

I mean, that's all rhetoric assuming that the new liberal movement isn't something born from internal gender biased jealousies and inequalities but, an avant-garde party with vaguely marxist/anarchist beliefs.

  No.9537

File: 1484635692383.png (313.37 KB, 173x200, 12481002ee3b09d0de81e6989715cea2511a06e68611b3e8f4d84e40c31d3089.png)

I have a similar story. I won't share it because no thanks. Suffice to say you get used to feeling outcast and eventually you find ways around it like just not giving a fuarrrk anymore.

It ultimately depends on where you want to go in life. Me? I'm done. I'm roughly the same age as you and I can already tell my life is over. I've fought this realization for many years and have just recently come to terms with it. So for me it's not so terrible to be outcast wherever you go. It's actually rather liberating as it allows you to just enjoy and be a part of things without being bogged down by your mental demons (well not entirely). I, however have very little I enjoy and don't hang around people so much anymore. So I suppose that's the downside.

If you plan to have a life, be it on or off the internet, I suggest you find a balance between not caring and caring too much. You'll really need to work at it, especially if you don't have a shoulder to lean on IRL. However it can be done.

  No.9553

>>9526
>it's highly abstract and very disconnected from the real world
Nah not really. The big topics are: physical/sexual violence (generally committed by men), prostitution (a special case of the former), and pornography (in turn a special case of the former). These are all very materially real (as much as a hand gripping your throat or a penis bludgeoning your vagina can be).

The issue of the transgender movement trampling on feminism is a new one that I hope won't last very long. It's pretty material in the sense that male transsexuals 1. yell and scream at feminists they dislike and try to silence them even when they're talking about a topic unrelated to transgenderism (see: Julie Bindel's talks about male violence drawing trans protesters because they simply don't want her speaking anywhere, at all), 2. get laws changed so that they can use female facilities ranging from bathrooms and locker rooms to prisons' female sections to female-only rape and domestic violence shelters, sign up for women's scholarships, etc. without requiring much more than a subjective conviction by the transsexual that he is in fact a woman, and 3. glamorize medical transition to children and teenagers who are confused and distraught because of failing to fit into gender norms, many of whom are actually gay or lesbians who then erroneously go on to change sex in what could be seen as a wicked form of conversion therapy. These are involved issues, but all relate to physical reality, even though all of them are rooted in abstract argumentations about "what is a woman."

It also seems to get very abstract when we come to the topic of gender on its own (unrelated to transgender issues), but sex roles and stereotypes (i.e. the concepts of gender) that lead the the conception of a mythical image of "woman" and "man" which society collectively believe in / think in terms of aren't all that complicated or abstract topics when you understand what's meant with them. Boys and girls are loaded full with these mythical images through classical arts and literature, pop culture/media, the adults in their life, and even other children around them who "learned" gender faster than them. This creates a de facto segregation of humans into two genders, feminine and masculine, which show themselves in very material ways such as the aggression of men, passivity of women, bullying of feminine boys and masculine girls, clothing norms which in women sometimes serve to mark them as targets of sexual abuse (a lot of "women's clothing" is designed by men to highlight exactly those parts of the body which are also sexualized by men, so when women wear those clothes their parts which men tend to sexually objectify in the first place are highlighted ever more), and so on.

Radical leftism is actually the materialist one, whereas liberal leftism is the "let's all change the ways we think and that'll solve all our problems" one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkXrS0NnQM0

>Is the sun, the atmosphere, rock and water male or female?

Dude, what? Feminism is neither physics, astronomy, meteorology, geology, oceanology, nor chemistry. Nobody's saying you can't be interested in those topics... I just happen to be interested in ethics and specialized in feminism.

  No.9554

[sage because double-posting]
[also yeah, maybe the thread should just be moved to /civ/ now]

>>9532
>You cannot escape the cage of mental constructs because, constructive logic is what all human thought is based on. We mentally model living routines from the available actions and interactions. One model or heiarchy can only be destroyed by being replaced with another one.
That's a fair point. Indeed I find it senseless and inane how some transgender supporters want people to literally ignore the "reality" of sexual dimorphism of female & male. I say reality because although *everything* is a mental construct in some sense, some of those constructs are more directly linked to material reality than others. E.g. when about 49% of people "happen to" have all of XX chromosomes, higher estrogen levels, ovaries, a uterus, and a vagina all at the same time, and another 49% "happen to" have all of XY chromosomes, higher testosterone, testes, and a penis all at the same time, and only about 1-2% of humans instead have various mixtures of the enumerated things on their bodies, then it's rather "natural" and very close to material reality to say that there are two big categories of human (along that certain division of criteria). On the other hand, it's unknown whether there's really anything in the brains of female and male people that make the former sexually withdrawn and the latter sexually aggressive, for instance. (Or replace that with any number of stereotypes of femininity and masculinity.) Those may be pure social constructs (belief systems) that barely have a foot in reality, and merely get perpetuated as memes (literally in the sense of memetics) rather than through globally and cross-historically reproducible observations. Just like religion. So, should you determine that they're also harmful to society, then you can very well work to abolish them.

Indeed, I remember reading a radfem calling patriarchy a global religion.

I suppose one may suggest that belief in gender, i.e. sex-based stereotypes of *some* form, is psychologically a phenomenon very closely comparable to belief in deities. Both are global, implying there may be something to human nature that leads to those false beliefs. And both often lead to atrocities, necessitating movements to oppose them. Gender abolitionism may as well be called gender atheism; it is to gender what atheism is to religion.

  No.9555

>>9554
> [also yeah, maybe the thread should just be moved to /civ/ now]
I support the motion.

  No.9556

>>9553

>The big topics are: physical/sexual violence (generally committed by men), prostitution (a special case of the former), and pornography (in turn a special case of the former).


OP after reading this thread I think I've discovered why you're so lonely.

Do you think that we're all rapists because we enjoy pornography, and sexual intercourse? It's hard to make friends when you've been convinced that everyone is a fuarrrking rapist. Like I mean you must think that about what 99% of men then? It's fuarrrking hard to be in the 0.1% man.

I think you need to get laid, and like everyone else in this thread is saying you probably need to make some friends outside of your movement.


Your ideology is fuarrrked, you know what MacKinnon and her buddy Dworkin did to Canada right? she sued the soykaf out of a tiny lesbian and gay book store in Manitoba for selling some hardcore dyke mag and eventually had it shut down AND set a bullsoykaf precedent in the supreme court of my (fuarrrked) country. Just in case anyone else in this thread is wondering if OP isn't a total wingnut one of his heroes actually took civil rights in my country backwards. Go ahead tho tell everyone on a cyberpunk themed board that you support the widespread censorship of pornography.

Source:
http://www.efc.ca/pages/wired-3.03.html
http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/OrdinanceCanada.html

I'm not saying that feminists are fascists, although I wouldn't apply that label to myself of course. But the anti-porn movement of the 80's was definitely a fascist one the low point of (the somewhat admirable) second wave of feminism. And we have them to thank for a slew of ill-conceived freedom restricting laws and regulations.

  No.9557

>>9556
>Do you think that we're all rapists because we enjoy pornography, and sexual intercourse?
No it's just that it doesn't make for good emotional bonding when you explain the reasons why porn is atrocious to someone but they don't understand why (perhaps "willfully" so) and keep defending it. A bit like vegans vs. people who refuse to care about supermarket meat and keep consuming it. (I still eat supermarket meat despite knowing it's atrocious; that's simply strangeness on my side and a topic for another day. Vegans are fully justified in despising me. I mean it.)

The problem with 99% of men is not that they watch porn, but that they would keep defending it even if I gave showed them statistics of abuse in the porn industry and explained them the theory of dehumanization through sexual objectification and how it leads to real-world violence on a societal scale.

You don't seem to understand the goals of the feminist anti-porn movement. I would recommend reading 'Pornography and Civil Rights' (on radfem.org) to, for instance, dispel the myth that it's a movement for censorship. It's rather a movement for civil rights, and as such the drafted law they put forth is a civil law rather than a criminal law. (I.e. it gives civilians the power to sue and charge for damages through a new category of legally defined 'damage' done to civilians, rather than having law enforcement strike down on criminals based on a new category of 'criminals' that exist regardless of whether it can be proven that they caused damage to any civilians.)

I'm confused about the "sources". The second one actually proves you wrong, doesn't it? Did you hastily copy it from Google results without checking its content more carefully? Or am I misunderstanding? The first one is basically a biased rant which, from what I can tell, has no proof for the claim that Dworkin & MacKinnon ever supported obscenity laws. (I only skimmed it so correct me if I'm wrong please.)

  No.9558

I can relate to this in many ways, and *luckily* I have been able to just shrug off sexist/racist dumb soykaf I see because it doesn't directly effect me (young/white/cis-male, whatever).. but it does bum me out, especially when I see it in communities that I love to be a part of, Lainchan, chan culture in general, local punk/DIY scenes, etc etc.

If you ever want to talk, I'm here.

anontrust@cock.li

  No.9559

>>9557
But human rights aren't real.
How can you be a materialist and support something so fictional like rights?
Which again are granted by what, the state? A structure of violence that serves the interests of the exploited masses now? This is a lot of news to me. And these favorite authors of yours were not of the liberal wing? How sure are you of that?

And exactly how are females supposed to gain autonomy by rallying around the myth of Woman? It is within a immaterial binary opposition, which means it will forever be inherently lacking, solely due to it's place within a binary. Man/Woman opposition is not comparable to materialist relations like Boss/Worker, to be clear. One is a material relation, while the other is, again, immaterial. The solution is queer theory. And no soykaf liberal queers are silly, but that's not really a refutation of queer theory, pal.

  No.9577

>>9559
>But human rights aren't real.
A fist that lands in someone's face because there are no social agreements on its inappropriateness and no concrete institutions that deter it from happening (be it a state, or gangs of women), is very materially real.

>[The concept of woman] is within a immaterial binary opposition, which means it will forever be inherently lacking,

Are you saying that when humans refuse to ignore the reality of sexual dimorphism, that unjust inequality between the sexes becomes unavoidable? Or what exactly are you trying to say?

  No.9578

>>9577
>A fist that lands in someone's face
What does this have to do with human rights?
The fist is very real, but the human rights to supposedly prevent it in this case is very much a social construct.

  No.9580

>>9577
>non aggression principle is a human right now
>people cant defend themselves
Wew laddie

  No.9581

>>9580
Going to get a lot of flak for this, but this kind of 'reasoning' is to be expected given the title of the board.

  No.9582

>>9578
>>9580
>>9581
It's a human right not to be subjected to violence.

It's literally in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as published by the UN, Jesus fuarrrking Christ:
http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/
>Article 3.
>Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.
>Article 5.
>No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

I wonder if >>9559 was really just a troll? Human rights are as material as can be: they're there to protect you from a fist in your face, a boot on your neck, fingers around your throat, a whip hitting your back, or a penis rapturing your orifices.

  No.9583

>>9582
Can you really not differentiate between the physical, material fist in the face and the immaterial social construct that is the declaration of human rights?

  No.9584

>>9583
Can you really not understand how the agreement upon and enforcement of that declaration affects physical, material reality?

  No.9585

File: 1484775271007.png (14.55 KB, 78x200, drawing of the guy from cowboy bebop.jpg)

>>9584
you can't argue with stirnerdrones because they just meme about abstract concepts not being real. it's some next-level delusion because they spent too much time on Cambodian flip-book forums.

  No.9587

>>9585
>lives for ideas and not themself
>calls others drones

  No.9588

>>9587
the self is an abstract idea. which is why it takes some species longer to realize their self and why other species never will

  No.9593

>>9588
Certainly, but you do not act on account of the idea of the self in the same way that you might act on account of the idea of, for instance, patriotism.

  No.9613

>>9593
this is a false premise because without the idea of the self other compound abstract ideas like patriotism couldn't be fathomed. living your yourself is living for ideas

  No.9617

File: 1484855708247.png (73.8 KB, 176x200, 1315385491247.jpg)

>be OP
>people complain my politics are too detached from real struggles
>MFW the above few posts

(It's all meant in good humor.)

  No.9618

>>9587
Besides
>the self is an abstract idea

I'd just like to point out that living for an idea doesn't necessarily excluse living for oneself.
Taking the example of nationalism (not patriotism), if I make it my goal to act in the interest of the nation, I have still 'willed' it (let's please circumvent discussions regarding determinism). I thus carry out my own will and impose it on others, thus rendering my nationalism something I do 'for myself'.
The same can be said for any other 'idea' or ideology.

If you were to suggest that living for oneself has to be a form of hedonism, then I would just say that is an idea or ideology just like nationalism.

So no, living for ideas does not necessarily make you a drone.

  No.9681

File: 1484975500628.png (499.96 KB, 200x150, Arisu.png)

this is where you belong lain.

  No.9696

>>9391
Maybe I'm a little bit late to give an advice. Sorry about that.

You should hang out with people who have radically different views that genuinely cares about people or society in general. On first glance, they look like your enemies, but after some time, you will see that they are fighting the same battle. They just have a different way of viewing things.

  No.9898

>>9696
This is sort of sound advice, but near impossible to follow. Where would you even find people like that? Post a Craigslist personal ad? How would you take care of the "and genuinely care about people" stipulation?